Let me tackle the next verse you posted to argue for your argument of universal atonement. Yes, it was God's mission to save sinners, but was it all sinners he came to save? If the answer is yes, but he didn't save all sinners, then He and His mission was a failure. That is not the God I serve, as my God was a 100% successful on saving those He came to save, this is why we read, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." Did he lose any of those? What saith the scripture, "thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21).
Now then, what specific sinners did Jesus come to save, it is those who under the Spirit of God recognize they are sinners and in need of a savior, this is what Jesus means when he says, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Luke 5:32). He said this to the self righteous Pharisees in Luke 5:30, in other words he has not calling the self righteous to repentance, but those who know they are sinners, these He can and will save-all of them. This is what Jesus meant when he said, "Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.(John 9:41).
Finally, I would point you the the Pharisee and the publican both who came to pray to God and thanks God he is not a sinner like the publican, the Pharisee prays naming all he has done for God, "11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. (Luke 18:11012), but the Publican prays, "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13). Jesus tells us the Publican was justified. God came to save sinners, and by this He means all who through the Holy Spirit's power believe they are sinners, need a savior, and recognize they cannot save themselves. All of these sinners he can and does save and this is what 1 Timothy 1:15 means when it says He "came to save sinners", however He did not come to save sinners who are self righteous and do not recognize they are sinners like the Pharisees.
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by GISMYS15, Nov 23, 2015.
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Let me tackle the final verse you posted in defense of universal atonement? I have already proved Jesus could only be the Savior of all the elect men in history and this is also what is meant in this verse here. Consider this, if he was the savior of one who goes to hell for their sin, then what did He save them from? Nothing, therefore one cannot say he is the Savior of all human beings.
Now what does the verse mean when it says that he is savior of “all men, specially of those who believe”? Simple he is the savior of all the elect in history, but specially to those who presently already believe and know the truth of the gospel of what Christ has done for them. If a man has a million dollar inheritance coming that he doesn’t deserve from a kind, merciful father, and he knows it, he appreciates it much more, than the man who will inherit a million dollars, but does not yet know anyone will be willing him such a large sum of money. It does him no good when he is ignorant of it, thus he can’t be thankful for it In like manner, all those who already believe the gospel and are born again value and appreciate their eternal inheritance and what Christ has done for them that they don’t deserve, but those elect who Christ is also the Savior for, but are not yet born again and do not know the gospel cannot yet appreciate what Christ has done for them or their inheritance to come, however eventually, before they die all of the elect will know Christ as their personal savior and believe the gospel and thus be thankful.
If you have any other verses you wish to discuss please post them and I will do my best to answer them Lord willing. -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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All men's hearts are hopeless, and no heart is better off than any other, accept for the grace of God. -
whom God said were righteous (in His eyes)?
My favs are Zach 'n Liz. -
So, do tell, did these merit their own righteousness? How so? -
This might just be why the NT suggests that we
"practice/work righteousness", 'cause only those who do such
are considered to be righteous in God's eyes.
However, some unnamed denoms don't have the first clue
how all of this works.
BTW, thou can call me Flip, if thou wishes. -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
So where do you think they found righteousness in God's eyes? -
Let's take Abraham for example. He died in faith. The faith that he died in was, a seed, singular, to come, in which all the nations of the earth would be blessed, declared righteous, with Abraham who with that seed was given the promises. Gal 3:16,8,9 The seed of Abraham, Christ, to whom the promise was made would be the Son of God and even though being Son he must learn obedience through sufferings and become obedient unto death even the death of the cross Heb 5:7,8 Phil 2:8 which then would be the revealed faith to come through which the righteousness of God would be imputed.
And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:23-26 YLT
And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -- being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that, in Christ Jesus, Rom 3:21-24 YLT
By grace (life) through the faith (the redemption, by death, shed blood) we are declared righteous. Adopted sons of God through the firstborn from the dead.
and when the fulness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law, that those under law he may redeem, that the adoption of sons we may receive; and because ye are sons, God did send forth the spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, 'Abba, Father!' so that thou art no more a servant, but a son, and if a son, also an heir of God through Christ. Gal 4:4-7 YLT -
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tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The Heart Healed And Changed By Mercy
Sin enslav'd me many years,
And led me bound and blind;
Till at length a thousand fears
Came swarming o'er my mind.
Where, I said in deep distress,
Will these sinful pleasures end?
How shall I secure my peace,
And make the LORD my friend?
Friends and ministers said much
The gospel to enforce;
But my blindness still was such,
I chose a legal course:
Much I fasted, watch'd and strove,
Scarce would show my face abroad,
Fear'd, almost, to speak or move,
A stranger still to GOD.
Thus afraid to trust his grace,
Long time did I rebel;
Till, despairing of my case,
Down at his feet I fell:
Then my stubborn heart he broke,
And subdu'd me to his sway;
By a simple word he spoke,
"Thy sins are done away." -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Tyndale, thank you for providing that poem by Cowper. He and John Newton were close friends.
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tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Amazing Grace?
I graciously accept, your grace O God, and now I am saved by grace.
Is that the amazing grace by which we are saved? We heirs of the grace of life.
When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
I or I? -
tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
- Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see. - ’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed. - Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home. - The Lord has promised good to me,
His Word my hope secures;
He will my Shield and Portion be,
As long as life endures. - Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace. - The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who called me here below,
Will be forever mine. - When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.
- Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
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No, I like you think it to be one of the great, if not, the greatest hymn.
My post was just to say, I believe that grace is all of God, not man's response to God. I believe grace came, because of the Son's response to the Father. All of God. -
tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Is this > And being made perfect, {he became the author of eternal salvation} unto all them that obey him; Heb 5:9 this > For the grace of God {that bringeth salvation} hath appeared to all men,?
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