For the Truth Seeker

You're wrong. A fish can jump out of water and die. Asian carp do it all the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdcQ56OpxNE

Your illustrations are silly.

 

This is rare in the realm of ichthyology, and it further illustrates how a fish is bound to its natural environment. Out of the water (for varying periods of time), the fish will die.

Fallacy: Ad Hominem. Of course, it's much easier to attack a person than deal with an analogy.

The Archangel

 

It's a fact that fish can and do jump out of water. They have the free will to do so. It may be against their nature but they CAN DO IT.

 

That isn't the point of the analogy--and I suspect you know that.

A fish can jump out of the water, but, then, it falls right back in. Or if it jumps out of the water and cannot return, it dies.

The Archangel

 

You said:

And it it a false statement. A fish can choose to jump out of the water.

 

Again, not the point of the analogy in it's total presentation, something I'm sure you know.

So, rather than deal with the clear example in the analogy, you split hairs to avoid engaging with anything that demonstrates that "free will" cannot be, by any means, libertarian.

The Archangel

 

Ok, enough about fishes :tongue3: Back to our discussion about choice.........it's your turn....

 

My turn to do what, exactly? :)

The Archangel

 

You had asked for scripture showing man freewill to choose. I gave you Genesis 2. You asked for some clarification about condemnation...and so forth. Have you decided I am correct?

 

And now it is late again and I must get to bed....4:30am comes quickly :sleep:

 

Does anyone else have any thoughts on why God, having all Sovereign Power and Right to do as He pleases, would give Adam and Eve a freewill choice between life and death?

I ask this because I am always hearing Calvinist say "God is Sovereign" when debating theologies between TULIP and Freewill.

 

when you read something and interpret it as being addressed to EVERYBODY when it is addressed to a SPECIFIC group of people, then you are totally out of context, and therein is the rub.
ALL these verses were addressed specifically to God's people (national Israel in the Old Testament, and spiritual Israel, that is, God's elect people from both Jews and Gentiles in the New Testament).

Paul, writing to the Roman CHRISTIANS:


Romans 15:4 - For whatsoever things were written aforetime (the Pentateuch, the prophets, the psalms, the entire OLD TESTAMENT) were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Paul, writing to the Corinthian CHRISTIANS:

1 Corinthians 10:11 - Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come .

God's word is for HIS PEOPLE, and them only.
The ten commandments, and all the law, were given to Israel, and to Israel only, and if God intended for all of mankind to be under obligation to Him through the law, He would have sent Moses to the tribes surrounding Israel, but He did not.

Once you understand that, and accept that it is a fallacy to believe and teach that God to want all men saved, then we can probably start talking about whether fallen, unregenerate man has what you call free will.

 

:thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs::thumbs:

 

mankind has a sin nature due to the fall of adam, and as such, sinners are free still to do though ONLY that that nature allows for them to do!

And being dead in their sins and transgressions, sinners canot respond by faith in jesus until/unless they are given the Grace/means to di such by the Holy Spirit Himself!

And while Christians have been freed from the dominion of the Law/flesh, we can still at any time still submit to the flesh, and during those times go back being "mastered by the flesh"

 

He's banned, so he can't respond....

 

What is lacking in all these discussions and likely the reason why we talk past each other often is the definition of what or who we mean by sinners. Are they the unregenerate sinners ? Or the regenerate sinners. If it is the former then Scripture is clear. They are dead in sin and trespasses, like the Ephesians. If it is the latter then they do have the choice e to choose to obey and reap the Lord's blessings or to choose to disobey and consequently reap God's displeasure as written many times in the OT.

 

Ah, a liitle relief from at least some of the lies and misrepresentations made by those who seek to smear Calvinism. But I have a feeling that some others from the other side of the aisle will try to fill in the gap. Sigh.

 

Well, I'm not gonna pile on. What's done is done...maybe it's a ban for "x" amount of days....

 

You mean the sinners who have not been saved, and the saved who are still sinning at times?

 

Anyone????