1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Foreknowledge

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Robert Snow, Nov 8, 2011.

  1. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    Jesus did know Nathanael in a personal way, and called him an Israelite indeed! This is a true Jew, children of the promise.

    Note what Nathanael asked in surprise, Whence KNOWEST THOU ME? It's right there if you will see it, Jesus KNEW Nathanael.

    Then notice how Jesus answered, BEFORE Nathanael was CALLED, Jesus SAW HIM. And in vs. 50 Jesus said Nathanael believed.

    Take those Calvinist blinders off and it is plain as day.
     
    #61 Winman, Nov 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2011
  2. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    So in other words, Jesus knew who would follow Him so He chose those men to follow Him? That makes absolutely no sense. Or how about He knew these men beforehand and chose them to follow Him?
     
  3. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    What? What would make no sense is to pick those who would not believe. The eleven apostles besides Judas were simple men, fishermen and tax collectors, but they believed in Jesus and gave their lives for him.

    Who in the world would pick unfaithful persons? If you commanded an army, would you choose unfaithful officers below you? I wouldn't.
     
  4. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are arguing apples and oranges. I did an exegesis on several passages. You have not disagreed with that argument but chose to go another direction. I am arguing the doctrine of foreknowledge by taking the passages that word is used and drawing conclusions. You have yet to address those issues. Based upon what I communicated about foreknowledge, what did you disagree with? Based upon those passages, how am I wrong?
     
  5. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    17
    Jesus perhaps? For His own purposes maybe?

    Wonder who chose Pharaoh?

    He picked Judas didn't He? Uh?

    He's Sovereign, and He chose each of us, not vice versa.

    Every disciple failed him and fled from Him. Guess who chose them? You've also failed Him, and he chose you.
     
  6. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    17
    This is typical, the going in a different direction. Your answers and arguments have been spot on.
     
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,376
    Likes Received:
    1,568
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Exactly! That sums it up.:thumbs:
     
  8. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    4,466
    Likes Received:
    3
    Thank you Winman for putting a correct theological monkey wrench in the Calvinistic machine of mis-interpretation.

    God choose those who would respond to the Gospel, those who would say yes to the Holy Spirit's conviction.
     
  9. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    17
    This work of faith mentioned in fals passages refer to the redeemed. It has nothing to do with "saving" faith whatsoever.
     
  10. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think you all understand that we are arguing two very different things in these verses. Winman is committing an exegetical fallacy. I am arguing "foreknown" from a didactic teaching, he is arguing a completely different word from a story, not even didactic teaching. In English, it would be similar to arguing the definition for "understand" as used in a dictionary and someone arguing for the word "stand" as used in the book Charlotte's Webb in an attempt to argue against me. It not only is poor argument, it is irrational.

    Thus, that is why I began with arguing with everyplace the word "foreknew" was in the Bible. He could attempt to change the debate, but it is not arguing against my view, rather it is a straw man.

    I can't argue against another completely different word used in a completely different context. I can argue for the word we are discussing in the context the Bible provides. That is what I have done. He still has yet to engage.
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    Can an unbeliever be conformed into Christ's image? If not, those foreknown and predestined must be believers...not foreknown and predestined to becomebelievers
     
  12. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    :rolleyes:


    So obviously Jesus did NOT choose people to be his disciples based on foreknowledge of believing. Otherwise Judas would not have been picked.
     
  13. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    4,466
    Likes Received:
    3
    G4267
    προγινώσκω
    proginōskō
    prog-in-oce'-ko
    From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

    Doesn't this say, "to know beforehand?"
     
  14. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    I believe the others pointed out that Jesus chose one who would not believe.
     
  15. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    and something else
     
  16. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is a theological compound word. Thus the sum of the compound parts do not always equal the definition (take our word "understand"). that is why I turned to how it was used, doing such you get an entirely different view of how the word is used.

    While D.A. Carson does not address this specific issue, he notes that there are many compound words in the Greek that cannot be used to denote the sum of the parts. Even in English we cannot do such.

    Thus, we must first start with how it is used in Scripture.
     
  17. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    Nonsense, Judas was chosen for a purpose, to fulfill scripture.

    Jn 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
    19 Now I tell you before it come, that when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

    If God caused Judas to betray Jesus, then God is the author of sin.

    Jesus chose Judas to fulfill prophecy. He did not cause Judas to betray him, but he foreknew he would.

    What is the marvel in foretelling a determined event? None. But if Jesus could foretell an undetermined event, it would prove he is God and give evidence for faith. This is what Jesus says in vs. 19.
     
  18. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    What's nonsense is your obvious contradiction.
     
  19. God's_Servant

    God's_Servant New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2009
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, are you telling me, that, through his actions, Judas somehow informed God of what he was going to do, then God acted in response to that?
     
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No one else can do that --only God can. It's a sign of His Godhood.

    No events are undetermined.
     
Loading...