Not even with the powerful gracious help of the Holy Spirit? Why not? Is the help of the Holy Spirit not helpful or gracious enough?
Foresight Faith View versus the Corporate View of Election in Baptist life?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jun 30, 2012.
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Skan, I completely agree that Romans 9 is speaking corporately, the Jews versus the Gentiles, but foreknowledge is still shown. God chose Jacob because he had faith and desired the promises made to his father Isaac, Esau did not believe the promises and sold his birthright for pottage. Now, I know that Jacob and Esau represent nations (Malachi), but the figure holds true, the descendants of Jacob (not all) generally believed and had faith in the true God, the descendants of Esau did not.
What is one of your favorite verses?
Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
This is foreknowledge, Paul declared that the gospel would go to the Gentiles and they would hear it. This is speaking both corporately and of individuals, because not all Gentiles were willing to hear, only a few out of the many Gentiles hear and believe. So, these Gentiles that will hear is speaking of individuals.
It is similar to when Paul spoke of the true Jews, the seed of Abraham;
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
The Jews themselves actually held a corporate view like yourself and believed they were all saved simply because the were the descendants of Abraham, but it was only individuals, a few out of the many of Israel who had faith like Abraham who were the chosen or elect.
Both views are shown in scripture, not one. -
There are neo-Calvinists that try to separate Calvinism from Reformed theology. Perhaps they buy into an individualistic view of election. But as for Reformed theology the emphasis has always been on the Church.
What your post does not address the "how." Either the individual's salvation is dependent on man's choice or God's calling (which includes the call, regeneration, and faith). -
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God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Rom 3:24
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:18
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Rom 1:18
This teaches us several key points:
1. God graciously looks over the sin previously committed, until which time he would provide justification for sin.
2. He has always justified on the basis of faith in His revelation.
3. No man has an excuse for unbelief because the revelation of God is very clear and understandable. -
Winman,
I've never denied the foreknowledge of God, I've only denied the application of God looking into the future at an individual's choices as the basis for his Election of the individual. That is not a biblical view of election IMO. -
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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1. Are you saying these verses are saying that God graciously looks over the sins of those non-jewish nations in the OT who did not turn to the one true God? If so, This sounds sketchy. If not, how does that statement address those nations to whom God did not reveal himself?
2. True
3. True, but it is generally assumed by both non-cal camps that the big argument against calvinism is that it does not give everyone the same chance to recieve Christ.
If you say God judges these OT nations based on their rejections his natural revelation...but saves those Israelites who respond to his specific revelation, which he withholds from those pagan nations...is this not a "choosing" of God to provide a way of salvation to one group of people, while not revealing the way of salvation to another group? -
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
All people, of all nations, are guilty according to the law. And no one, even the most law biding Jews, have attained righteousness through observance of the law. HOWEVER, anyone (from any nation), who has had the faith even the size of mustard seed, has attained righteousness by God's gracious provision through Christ's atoning work. So, for example, Rahab's simple fear of the Israelite God which lead her to hide the spies was credited to her account as righteousness. She was a sinner, she didn't obey the laws, but she wasn't punished for those sins. Her sins were overlooked. Instead, God, who is gracious in mercy, justified her through the cross and credited her faith as righteousness. In contrast, even Abraham, who did follow the laws, was credit as righteous not because of his being circumcised, but on account of his faith in God.
So, God, because of his great love, takes even the small filthy rage of humble fear in an unseen God and credits it as righteousness, not because the faith itself is worthy of that gift, but on the basis of Christ's worth and provision. That is GRACE!!! -
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Paul addressing the Athenians told them that they must not think of God as an idol, but the times of this ignorance God "winked at". Now they had full revelation and were commanded to repent and trust in Christ.
It is clear that God holds a person accountable according to their knowledge and revelation received.
Luk 18:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
I will have to do more study, but I had noticed much scripture like this. -
Winman,
I agree, and its not only seen in scripture, but it makes perfect common sense. I have four kids and I would hold my eldest son to an higher standard of accountability than my youngest. Why? Because he knows better. -
JB_Reformed Baptist New MemberSite Supporter
Free-willers and bondage of the will thinkers... What did Jesus actually accomplish at the cross in regards to Satan's defeat? How should we apply it to salvation and man's responsibility?
How r we to understand this biblically?
Also, does the sower and the seed way in on how we should be thinking about election and predestination? -
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Squire Robertsson AdministratorAdministrator
Zombie thread closed. Folks, don't resurrect a thread that hasn't been posted to in five (5) years.
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