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Featured Four Major Themes of the Prophetic Word of God

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JD731, Jul 3, 2024.

  1. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    1) The world wide Kingdom of God on the earth
    2) The two comings of Jesus Christ to the earth, once to suffer & once to reign
    3) The doctrine of the remnant of Israel
    4) The day of the LORD

    Since all the prophets of God were Hebrews, beginning with Moses, and including Jesus Christ, careful attention must be given to understand how these themes relates to the church of Jesus Christ, which has a Jewish foundation but a definite gentile character with a heavenly calling.

    This thread is not to necessarily discuss prophecy but the relationship of the church to Israel's national and geographical and ethnical and religious and eternal promises as a separate entity from the church of Jesus Christ, which has it's own unique promises.
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  3. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Not an order, just themes. You understand what I mean by themes of prophecy, right?
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Blows my mind. You diehard Dispensationalists will never cease to put the Jews on the pedestal above the Church. I suppose you consider the Church as a 'parenthesis', an interruption, in God's grand scheme of things?
     
  6. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Believing the testimony of God in the scriptures first and foremost has nothing to do with dispensationalism. It has everything to do with faith. Every prophecy of the first coming of Jesus Christ was fulfilled literally, every point. Why do you preach God will not do the same at his second coming? Have you ever read the scriptures?

    I consider the church as it is defined in the scriptures, a mystery. It was defined by the apostle Paul in his letter to the Ephesians.

    Is there anything in any translation that you actually believe? So far you are batting zero.
     
  7. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Theme

    an idea that recurs in or pervades a work of art or literature.

    I have shown in other threads how "the day of the LORD" in it's primary usage always pictures the judgement of God upon Israel and the nations at a particular time in the future. This phrase appears as a prophecy in 17 books of the Bible and by 12 authors. This prophecy is mentioned first in 810 BC and lastly in 2 Peter 3. it is in scripture 30 times in 29 verses. It is twice in one of those verse. It is always a wrath of God against sinners that is future. It is coming. It is described by the prophets as a day of the wrath of God, his indignation, his vengeance against sinful nations, darkness, blackness, fire and death.

    John the apostle said he was on the isle of Patmos on the Lord's day (Re 1:10) and he said the day of his wrath "is come" making him the only one who spoke of it in the present tense (Re 6:17)

    Anyone can check this rather easily if they had a mind to.

    Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead..

    Believe the words of the prophets of God. He told them what to say and write.

    I will show another of these 4 themes later.
     
  8. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    The kingdom.
    It is denied by modern denominational Christianity and the Messianic claim of Jesus Christ and his coming to establish his kingdom through the nation of Judah was the reason he was crucified by the Jewish rulers who Jesus said were the children of the devil and were doing his will.

    Here is biblical proof.


    John 19:19-22
    19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
    20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
    21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
    22 Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.
     
  9. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 21:1-10
    1 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
    2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
    3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
    4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
    5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
    6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,
    7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.
    8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
    9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
    10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?

    Modern Denominational Christian rulers are still rejecting the kingdom of Jesus Christ and his right to rule over all the earth.

    It was in the city of Jerusalem where the rulers were that Jesus ran into a brick wall of rejection..


    Mark 12:37
    David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The One Major Theme of all the Prophetic statements of the Word of God is this:


    "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of humanity."


    Turning now to the relationship of the "church" to "Israel's promises" we must define "church" as referring to everyone born anew, the general assembly of Hebrews 12:23, and "Israel's promises." These are the promises made to Abraham and his descendants, such as David. Paul tells us not every blood descendant is a child of the promise, but only those "of faith." Galatians 3:7. Next he says those that belong to Christ are children of the promise, Galatians 3:29. In summary "All Israel" is defined by Paul in Romans 9:6 and Romans 11:26.

    Therefore no promises were made to "national" or bloodline Israel, or any other human classification. The promises were made to only those who obtained approval through faith and now belong to Christ.
     
  11. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    The definition of the church is his body, those who are "in Christ." It certainly is not defined by those who are born again. Born again is defined by those whom the Spirit of God indwells, Those in the church are born again, meaning the Spirit indwells them and they are also those whom the Spirit has baptized into his body as functioning members of it. The church has a beginning and a completion but it does not include every person who will ever have the indwelling Spirit of God.

    The church of Jesus Christ is not defined as "Jacob."

    Ro 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, (Hosea) I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
    27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
    28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

    You have all the Jewish Christian epistles addressed to these people in the region we now know as Asia Minor where the people addressed in Hosea were in the days of the writing of the New Testament. They are the people of the ten tribes of Israel who God said because of their sins, "no people" yet in the same breath said he would make them sons of the living God. This action of God was not magic. It required a new birth into the family and is the reason God sent the Jewish preachers of the New Testament to preach to what he called "the circumcision in Ga 2.

    Think and believe.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Note the nonsense:


    1) He claims the universal church is not comprised only of those born anew.

    2) He suggests everyone in the universal church had to be indwelt while physically living? All the OT saints who died before Christ died and went to Abraham's bosom were not born anew or indwelt while physically living. ​

    Turning now to the relationship of the "church" to "Israel's promises" we must define "church" as referring to everyone born anew, the general assembly of Hebrews 12:23, and "Israel's promises." These are the promises made to Abraham and his descendants, such as David. Paul tells us not every blood descendant is a child of the promise, but only those "of faith." Galatians 3:7. Next he says those that belong to Christ are children of the promise, Galatians 3:29. In summary "All Israel" is defined by Paul in Romans 9:6 and Romans 11:26.

    Therefore no promises were made to "national" or bloodline Israel, or any other human classification. The promises were made to only those who obtained approval through faith and now belong to Christ.
     
  13. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Quote me making that claim please.

    The Bible makes no claims for the "universal church" so when you use the term it could mean anything. My authority for the language of scripture is the KJV and your authority seems to be whatever you are thinking at the time. I doubt you could go to a single translation or paraphrase and find that term. Therefore it is totally made up by you to use in this discussion.

    That being said, Van, no one could be born again until the atonement for sin was made by blood. If the OT saints could be born again before the cross, then Jesus would not have had to die. You are quoting scripture references out of context and trying to prove something that is not said.
    Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    Preaching the Biblical Jesus is fundamental to our salvation!​

    Hebrews 12:23 is not speaking of the church of Jesus Christ, the church and family of which he is the head and the "beginning" at his resurrection from the dead.
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    The beginning of the body is clearly said to be at his resurrection when he was the first to be born from the dead. As the firstborn in God's economy, he is said to be the heir of God and since we are one with him then we are made joint heirs with him and what he inherits so do we who are in his body (family) Jesus Christ is not said to be our father but our brother.

    Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    The promise in Ga 3 is the Spirit of Christ who indwells believers in his death, burial, and resurrection. This is possible for Jews and gentiles, he says, after faith has come. The faith comes after the law as the operative principle of divine dealing. The point he is making in this chapter is that the principle of grace is now God's principle of divine dealing but it does not nullify the promises to Abraham and his seed that were made to him in the Abrahamic covenant but it does include members in all families of the earth in the promise of life through Abrahams one seed, Jesus Christ.

    Many of the Christians that were in the churches he was addressing in Galatia were of the ten tribes of Israel who had practiced certain parts of the law even though they were not in their land. They had been confused by the Judaizers who followed and disputed Paul and his message of grace only and taught their own mixture of grace and of the law of Moses for salvation.. The dispute then was between law and grace in Galatians and who receives the promise of the life giving Spirit of Christ and how he is received.

    You are actually teaching a false gospel. The good news is that there is still time to get it right.
     
    #13 JD731, Jul 4, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2024
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I see where a poster has claimed he is not familiar with the concept of the universal church, and indicated that I had made up the term. These claims are ludicrous.

    Next we see the false charge I had not defined "universal church."
    Here is the poster's statement:
    The Bible makes no claims for the "universal church" so when you use the term it could mean anything.​

    Here is my definition:
    "... we must define "church" as referring to everyone born anew, the general assembly of Hebrews 12:23,...." ​

    Next the poster acknowledges the biblical truth "no one could be born again until ..."[Christ died as a ransom for all]. But since the "general assembly" is comprised of those born anew, one must conclude those that had obtained approval before Christ died, we made perfect before they were brought to heaven.

    Next we get the "you are quoting scripture out of context" but no evidence of contrary context is provided. This is simply a "taint so" claim in other words.

    Next the poster says Hebrews 12:23 is not speaking of the church!

    Hebrews 12:23 (NASB)
    to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,​

    This claim is utter nonsense and betrays an effort at obfuscation

    Next this poster claims the "Law" is the "operative principle of divine dealing." No flesh is justified by the Law.

    No one said anything nullified the promises made to Abraham, or his descendants. The opposite was said, non-blood line believers comprise part of "All Israel."

    Lastly, this poster says that Galatians 3 as I present it is teaching false gospel. More name calling nonsense as my view is the mainstream Baptist view.

    Universal Church = All Israel = everyone that belongs to Christ, Jews and Gentiles.
     
  15. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    This is a very strange way to communicate with someone. Speaking to the wind about "this poster." Strange indeed.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Posters who address "how something is said" rather than addressing "what was said" are engaging in obfuscation.

    1) The universal church is a well known concept, and to suggest I made it up is ludicrous.

    2) Since the "general assembly" is comprised of those born anew, one must conclude those that had obtained approval before Christ died, were made perfect before they were brought to heaven. See Hebrews 12:23

    3) Universal Church = All Israel = everyone that belongs to Christ, Jews and Gentiles.
     
  17. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    My comments here are causing you to expose your doctrinal insufficiencies.
     
  18. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    What was the message of the Messiah when he came to earth in the flesh and what did he preach? Now that is an easy question to answer. One would only need to read the gospel accounts to answer that question. If they did read the gospel accounts and missed the answer i t would indeed prove some things about the reader. Let me help with this question. First, let me just answer the question. Jesus Christ came and presented himself to Israel as their promised King who had come to establish the kingdom that was promised in the OT scriptures concerning himself. Here is one of the most important things Jesus said about his own reason for coming. There are people who read this and will not believe it.

    Lu 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    Please do not just skip over this verse, but consider it and meditate upon it and reason it out. Watch this following verse written in the Psalms. Jesus said if it concerned him he came to fulfill it.

    Ps 47:2 For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.
    3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.
    4 He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah.

    5 God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet.
    6 Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises.
    7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.
    8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.
    9 The princes of the people are gathered together, even the people of the God of Abraham: for the shields of the earth belong unto God: he is greatly exalted.

    If one can read words like this and gaze back through history and be unable to see this as already happened, then he must consider it is something that is still future and is one of the things in the Psalms that Jesus came into the world as a man to fulfill. So, the prophecies in the psalms are real prophecies that must come to pass.

    Are there any Baptists left who believes this?

    Listen the the testimonies of men and angels.

    Lk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
    27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
    28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
    29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
    30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
    31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
    32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
    33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

    This is not the house of Israel but the house of Jacob, which consisted of the 12 tribes of Israel. If God does not at some point in history give Jesus the throne of David and if Jesus does not from that time reign over the family of Jacob forever, then I recommend kicking all Bibles over the hill and go about more productive pursuits than reading these prophecies.

    Matt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
    28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Matt 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
    2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    It has been my experience that the more education a Baptist has the more likely he is to not know what "at hand" means.

    Mt 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

    A house is a family. The house of Jacob is the house of Jacob, the twelve tribes of Israel. They will see him again at his revelation.

    Do a word study in the KJV for "generation." It is this generation of Jews in Jesus days who were tasked with recognizing the Messiah and come to him and believe in him, because it was this generation that would see his kingdom come had they been gathered to him by faith in him. The Jewish rulers hindered him and caused this delay and they are in hell today. The generation of Jesus Christ ended in 70 AD with the citizens scattered into all the nations of the heathen.

    .Mt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
    The genealogy record stopped with Jesus..

    Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

    Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

    Re 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Everyone up to the time the liberals took over Christianity understood the King and his kingdom. But now no one believes it and I am told all these new Bible translations are given to help us to understand.

    Is there one person on this Baptist board who believes these prophecies?

    Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Mt 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

    Mt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
    8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
    9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
    10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
    11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Note that this post simply casts aspersions, but fails to actually address our doctrinal differences.

    2) Luke 24:44 (NASB)
    Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all [these] things that are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

    Here we have yet another effort to expand (add to) God's word, such that all of the things written about Christ are in view, rather than the things in contextual view, found in Luke 24:46-48. ​

    3) The universal church is a well known concept, and to suggest I made it up is ludicrous.

    4) Since the "general assembly" is comprised of those born anew, one must conclude those that had obtained approval before Christ died, were subsequently made perfect (after Christ died) and then they were brought to heaven. See Hebrews 12:23

    5) Universal Church = All Israel = everyone that belongs to Christ, Jews and Gentiles.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The One Major Theme of all the Prophetic statements of the Word of God is this:
    "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of humanity."

    Turning now to the relationship of the "church" to "Israel's promises" we must define "church" as referring to everyone born anew, the general assembly of Hebrews 12:23, and "Israel's promises." These are the promises made to Abraham and his descendants, such as David. Paul tells us not every blood descendant is a child of the promise, but only those "of faith." Galatians 3:7. Next he says those that belong to Christ are children of the promise, Galatians 3:29. In summary "All Israel" is defined by Paul in Romans 9:6 and Romans 11:26.

    Therefore no promises were made to "national" or bloodline Israel, or any other human classification. The promises were made to only those who obtained approval through faith and now belong to Christ.
     
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