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Featured "Free Choice" - MB

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. thatbrian

    thatbrian Active Member

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    I said:

    So, if I understand you correctly, people hear the Word of God, and then they have a "free choice" as to is they wish to be saved or not. Is that correct?

    Do you wish to reply, MB?
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    We always choose freely.
     
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  3. thatbrian

    thatbrian Active Member

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    As a Calvinist, I am using my free will to agree with you, fully.
     
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  4. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I know. It was predetermined.
     
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  5. thatbrian

    thatbrian Active Member

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    And yet free.

    God's sovereignty and man's responsibility - not in conflict.
     
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  6. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Yep. I hold a compatiblist view on this topic.
     
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  7. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Free will is something we all need in order to Love. We cannot love someone including God with out choice.
    Calvinism says we have no choice. We are forced to Love God. We are forced to be saved. and this can't happen unless God chooses to save you. There is no surrender and they really do not know if they've even been chosen. Calvinist always want to point to what there church history says and really it all boils down to Catholicism from before the reformation. After all Calvinism came out of the Catholic church. This is why they are sometimes called reformers. For all intents and purposes they are reformed Catholics. A man named Augustine in about the third or forth century wrote a book called the city of God and the Catholics built their doctrines around it.MB
     
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    So you deny that the lost soul is in bondage to the law of sin and death? Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.

    The bible says the lost man chooses to be God's enemy, not to love him. Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    No, it doesn't. I have corrected you several times on this egregious error but you keep saying it even though you know it is wrong. We all make choices every day. Including lost people. They just choose to hate God. To ignore God. To consider God their enemy. (See verses above.)

    No, we are not. We love God because He first loved us.

    No, we are not forced. We are enabled to see the beauty of God's wonder plan for our lives.

    Correct. Unless you are saved you cannot see the love of God.

    Of course we know. We know because we believe.

    Nope. The RCC, prior to the Reformation, was entirely Pelagian. Salvation was by works. The rosary was called "God's Stairway to Heaven."

    Nope. It is not called "Reformed" for nothing!

    Yes, because they wanted to reform the corruption of the RCC. But got kicked out for their efforts.

    There is no such thing as a "Reformed" Catholic. The very term is an oxymoron.

    Yes, the RCC used Augustine's writings as the foundation of their ecclesiology (which was not what Augustine was writing about), but they wholeheartedly rejected his soteriology. As do you. :)
     
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  9. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    No I do not disagree with either passage yet neither has anything to do with free choice.

    Yes, because they wanted to reform the corruption of the RCC. But got kicked out for their efforts.

    [/QUOTE]
    Then you admit the truth. Catholicism is where Calvinism.
    MB
     
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Except we are not talking about "free choice" (whatever that is). We are talking about free will, verses the bible doctrine of the bondage of the will.

    I have already explained this to you. The RCC, prior to the Reformation, was entirely Pelagian. Salvation was by works. The rosary was called "God's Stairway to Heaven."
     
  11. thatbrian

    thatbrian Active Member

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    The Bible clearly demonstrates over and over again, that mankind is in bondage. He is held captive, he is not free. He is a slave to sin. The children of Israel in Egypt are a physical example of this spiritual bondage. There were slaves until God set them free. All men are bound by sin until freed by Christ.

    - The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

    - Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.

    = We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. (Romans 6:6)

    - They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. (2 Peter 2:19)



    No. Calvinism does not insist that men have no choice. Men have choices that are limited by their nature, (and many other things). Is a man free to breathe underwater? Is a fish free to walk the Earth? A sinner is free to do what sinners do - sin. He has no ability, and as we also know, no desire to come to Christ. A sinner is seeking God like a criminal is seeking a cop.

    Men are free to choose, but their choices are limited by their nature.

    No. That is not the position of the Calvinist. We are free to Love God. No man can love God until he is set free. See John 6:44.

    First of all, who (in his right mind) would not want to be saved? Second, you are incorrectly portraying Calvinism yet again. A man is made a new creation, a man is "born again", and when that man is new, he desires new things. He desires Christ. He loves Christ when a moment prior he hated Christ. Look at the "theif on the cross" for a perfect example of this.

    I'm not certain what you mean here. Would you please explain?

    Everything correct doctrine that you and I believe now also "came out of the Catholic Church".

    Firstly, that's not true, and secondly, if it were, why would that be a bad thing? If the Catholic Church was wrong on certain issues, as it certainly was, if the Reformers corrected those errant things, then they would be in a good place. If the Reformed Church is the Catholic Church, but without the error, what's the problem?

    WOW. I'll leave out coment on this one, as it's too silly to even respond to.
     
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  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus stated to us that those whom he has set free, are fee indeed, so what were we set free from?
     
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  13. thatbrian

    thatbrian Active Member

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    Good point. If we weren't in bondage, why would we even need freeing?
     
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  14. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    Scripture please. I've read my bible cover to cover many times. I have never found any scripture that says men have free will unto salvation.

    The Bondage of the will should be required reading for all Christians whether you agree or not. It was a huge moment in church history.

    http://www.reformedreader.org/bow.htm

    A quote:

    Since God's foreknowledge is not uncertain, "free-will" is non-existent

    It is fundamentally necessary and healthy for Christians to acknowledge that God foreknows nothing uncertainly, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks "free-will" flat, and utterly shatters it; so that those who want to assert it must either deny my bombshell, or pretend not to notice it, or find some other way of dodging it. Surely it was you, my good Erasmus, who a moment ago asserted that God is by nature just, and kindness itself? If this is true, does it not follow that He is immutably just and kind? that, as His nature remains unchanged to all eternity, so do His justice and kindness? And what is said of His justice and kindness must be said also of His knowledge, His wisdom, His goodness, His will, and the other Divine attributes. But if it is religious, godly and wholesome, to affirm these things of God, as you do, what has come over you, that now you should contradict yourself by affirming that it is irreligious, idle and vain to say that God foreknows by necessity? You insist that we should learn the immutability of God's will, while forbidding us to know the immutably of His foreknowledge! Do you suppose that He does not will what He foreknows, or that He does not foreknow what He wills? If he wills what He foreknows, His will is eternal and changeless, because His nature is so. From which it follows, by resistless logic, that all we do, however it may appear to us to be done freely and optionally, is in reality done necessarily and immutably in respect of God's will. For the will of God is effective and cannot be impeded, since power belongs to God's nature; and His wisdom is such that He cannot be deceived. Since, then His will is not impeded, what is done cannot but be done where, when, how, as far as, and by whom, He foresees and wills...

    You could benefit from a course in church history.
     
    #14 Katarina Von Bora, Dec 3, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
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  15. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    Then you admit the truth. Catholicism is where Calvinism.
    MB[/QUOTE]

    Completely untrue.

    You need this class more than I thought! 01 - Why Church History
     
  16. anerlogios

    anerlogios Member
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    What are we defining as "free will"? I'm sure Arminians and Calvinists hold different definitions.
     
  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Nope. The RCC, prior to the Reformation, was entirely Pelagian. Salvation was by works. The rosary was called "God's Stairway to Heaven."

    Lies.

    False misrepresentation of the Catholic Faith, No catholic believe salvation is by works or earned.

    We have a catechism that describes exactly what we believe,

    you can quote it, That way you can stop lying.

    I would be surprised if a Calvinist disagreed on something he didn't have to MAKE UP as his oppositions position.


    Like I'm Catholic and don't agree with MB, He doesn't think Calvinism is right, so you MAKE UP he doesn't believe in God's sovereignty.

    I could verify with you, what are your beliefs, I can say well do you believe this? no? well how about this? no? And I will keep going till I get it right.......and still find something wrong to disagree with your faith.

    Making up lies of what the other person believes is a sin.
     
  18. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    God's sovereignty, nothing is impossible with God, so his system HAS TO BE CALVINIST. LOL!!!!!!

    God can do ANYTHING HE WANTS, so its impossible he gives anyone free will because [blasphemy edited]


    Seriously is it possible for God to run the entire system of existence in a non-Calvinist way?

    Is that an option at all. Can he realey do what he wants?



    Is he forced to, required knowledge.

    Can God beat you in a game of poker without knowing what hand you got? Or is the only possible way he can win is if he knows and picks out the hand for you?
     
    #18 utilyan, Dec 4, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2017
  19. thatbrian

    thatbrian Active Member

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  20. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly.
    All must have faith in order to be saved. Hearing the Word of God does cause men to come to have faith. Faith is trusting in Christ.
    Not one person in the Bible was ever saved with out faith.
    Not one Gentile was ever elected in scripture.
    No where in scripture is the atonement ever limited.
    No where in scripture is saving Grace from God ever given with out the person having Faith in Christ
    No where in scripture does it say that man must persevere.
    Calvinist claim scriptural references that when read in the context of scripture does not say what they claim it does.
    Some if not all Calvinist try to apply what is written to the Jews, to them selves.
    Didn't you notice that total depravity has not been proven to be true
    MB
     
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