Free Will and Prayer....

I have to say, both Calvinists and Arminians have problems here. It is just a tension that we have to live with. For the Arminian, it does indeed seem pointless to pray for another's salvation, since presumably God is doing everything possible, except violating their "Libertarian free will."

Yet us Cals have a problem too: why pray for someone that is already saved or unsaved? Our high view of God's sovereignty would seem to make this a difficult question.

Personally, as a Cal, I resolve this by saying that God decrees not only that someone will come to Him, but also decrees the means by which that decree is carried out: which includes prayer.

 

Not meaning to be mean...

That is quite convenient statement to make when you want to go against the clear meaning of the Acts 13 passage we were discussing.

Not to be mean...just sayin'

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Hezekiah's experience does not violate Hunter's [and my] concept of what constitutes prayer.

 

I usually don't get into these, but this thread has got me to thinking and I do have some questions about the use of Hezekiah. Didn't God already know the time of death for Hezekiah? I mean, was HE HIMSELF surprised that Hezekiah lived 15 more years? Did it "change" anything for God? I know it did for Hezekiah. Wasn't this mainly for Hezekiah's benefit anyway?

BTW, I am enjoying the battle. Good exercise. :smilewinkgrin:

 

God wasn't surprised He was going to live another 15 years, since He was the One who granted it after hearing Hezekiah's prayer. The text is plain that He had decreed Hezekiah was going to die (what I meant earlier by killing him...probably not the best use of wording), hence telling him to get his house in order. Fact is, it's a mystery how an omniscient God not bound by time works with His creation that is.

 

I like your post here, and it is pretty much what I was going to post before seeing yours.

And I will state as a Non-Cal (in your view an Arminian):
I resolve this also by saying that God decrees not only that someone will come to Him, but also decrees the means by which that decree is carried out: which includes prayer

 

Show patience.



Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

 

I don't exspect God to save him unless he first believes. Yet because it is God's will for all to come to Him I hope that God's Spirit would work toward that persons Salvation. Work to convince, and convict. It is conviction that causes a man to surrender or submit
MB

 

I disagree.
There is nothing within an "Arminian" framework as I understand it that would prevent us from recognizing that there are special cases (e.g., divine inspiration of scripture; various answers to prayer or road to damascus experiences) in which God overwhelmingly intervenes in influencing the human will and thus "determines" human choice. In these cases the means by which God determines human choice may well include decisive conditioning of human choices by way of God's directly intervening in both the person's external and internal (mental) environment so as to bring about the divinely desired outcome, in a way similar to that envisioned by "Calvinists."

In other words, Arminians do not deny the ability of God in intervene and affect man's will. LFW, is the belief that man could have chosen to do other than what he ends up doing. So, even a miraculous sign from God would not necessarily "violate" LFW, it would only influence or "provoke" the will. Scripture speaks about such cases regularly which begs the question as to the purpose of such influence/provoking/persuasion if indeed God's effectual calling is being employed for salvation.

 

If you accept the possibly that in some cases God guarantees that certain people would will to do certain things, including respond in repentance and faith, why is it that you might even think to argue one must have LFW to be "responsible" for actions? Are the ones in whom God divinely intervenes "responsible" for those actions that God sovereignly determines--whether good or bad?
If yes, then LFW is not an essential to grant "responsibility" to a person; CFW can also qualify.
If no, then you would indeed believe that God is a respecter of persons and that He makes certain people do things of which they should not be held accountable.

If for every choice or action performed one could have done otherwise, as in all paths were completely equal, what exactly is the reason or driving force that involves the choice made in particular? Does not everyone choose to do things for a reason? If all choices are equal both in presentation and in the will, then how can one truly be "responsible" for merely acting arbitrarily? One is more responsible in court if a motivation is determined. If no motivation is detected and the action seems arbitrary, a person can plead insanity to avoid the consequences of responsibility.

 

For one, I don't believe God would "sovereignty determine" a "bad" act. The bible is clear that God doesn't even tempt men to evil, much less determine their evil.

Second, when God does intervene to "causally determine" acts he does so for a noble purpose. To bring salvation to the world...to reveal His Glory...etc. For example, Jonah was causally determined to go to Ninevah. God could have "effectually called" him through some internal irresistible force that changed his desires, but instead God used a whale. Another example, is Paul. Again, God could have effectually changed his nature and desires by some internal means, but instead it appears God used a blinding light and the prophet Nathan. Doubting Thomas refused to believe and though God could have simply used an "effectual calling" to overcome his doubts, He chose to let him see the nail scars in person.

God does intervene with in time and space to bring about his sovereign will, but that doesn't negate the fact that God desires men who don't see to still believe.

Proof that God effectually brings His message to the world is not proof that God effectually draws all believers who responded to that message.

The driving force or cause for any morally accountable choice is the chooser. Acts are caused by an actor. Choices are chosen by the chooser. That is "agent causation."

What you need to realize is your question assumes the premise that there must be a "cause" beyond the agent, which is really just a game of question begging because it assumes that a deterministic explanation is required. The choice between available options is what free will is all about and it is mysterious, beyond full explanation, for a full explanation presuppose the very determinism LFW rejects.

So, while there are influential "reasons" a person might have for making a choice these cannot necessarily be defined in terms of what "determined" the choice..for the agent himself is the determiner of his choices. That process is beyond our full comprehension and thus remains mysterious...

Now, before you attack the idea of "mystery," you must address God's freedom in making choices...because if LFW can be established at any level then its possibility, though not fully understood, must be accepted.

 

I concur. John Piper holds this view, as well. And Paul, who wrote in I Cor 1:21 that it pleases God to save through the foolishness of preaching.

So, guys, we're in good company.

 

This is not the Arminian position. This might be YOUR position, but it is decidedly non-Arminian. What you have expressed above, is moderate Calvinism, ala Millard Erickson.

Arminianism does indeed deny it. Individuals calling themselves "Arminian" may not.

Libertarian Free Will is the belief that man has absolute say in his ultimate destiny, which cannot be influenced (hence, the 'Liberatarian' part, as in "liberated from anything which affects one's will") by outside forces, and CERTAINLY God could not, according to LFW, actually affect a man's change of mind, by tampering with his mind itself.

Again, this idea that God accomplishes his ends by controlling each individuals circumstances (in other words, sending a miracle to one person, to make them change their mind, but not to another), is actually moderate Calvinism. Millard Erickson gives an excellent rendition of this Calvinist position, in his classic work Christian Theology.

 

There are so many labels thrown around with regard to all the differing views, but my point was that Arminans (non-Calvinists in general) typically would recognize that there are special cases (e.g., divine inspiration of scripture; various answers to prayer or road to damascus experiences) in which God overwhelmingly intervenes in influencing the human will...as in the examples of Jonah in the belly of the whale, or Paul on the road to Damascus.

Agreed, some "Arminians" may deny it, but I'm not sure Jacobus Arminius himself would have denied it. After all, he wrote:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]I consider Divine Providence to be "that solicitous, continued, and universally present inspection and oversight of God, according to which he exercises a general care over the whole world, but evinces a particular concern for all his [intelligent] creatures without any exception, with the design of preserving and governing them in their own essence, qualities, actions, and passions, in a manner that is at once worthy of himself and suitable to them, to the praise of his name and the salvation of believers. In this definition of Divine Providence, I by no means deprive it of any particle of those properties which agree with it or belong to it; but I declare that it preserves, regulates, governs and directs all things and that nothing in the world happens fortuitously or by chance. Beside this, I place in subjection to Divine Providence both the free-will and even the actions of a rational creature, so that nothing can be done without the will of God, not even any of those things which are done in opposition to it; only we must observe a distinction between good actions and evil ones, by saying, that "God both wills and performs good acts," but that "He only freely permits those which are evil." Still farther than this, I very readily grant, that even all actions whatever, concerning evil, that can possibly be devised or invented, may be attributed to Divine Providence Employing solely one caution, "not to conclude from this concession that God is the cause of sin." This I have testified with sufficient clearness, in a certain disputation concerning the Righteousness and Efficacy of Divine Providence concerning things that are evil, which was discussed at Leyden on two different occasions, as a divinity-act, at which I presided. In that disputation, I endeavoured to ascribe to God whatever actions concerning sin I could possibly conclude from the scriptures to belong to him; and I proceeded to such a length in my attempt, that some persons thought proper on that account to charge me with having made God the author of sin. The same serious allegation has likewise been often produced against me, from the pulpit, in the city of Amsterdam, on account of those very theses; but with what show of justice such a charge was made, may be evident to any one, from the contents of my written answer to those Thirty-one Articles formerly mentioned, which have been falsely imputed to me, and of which this was one. [/FONT][/FONT]

Maybe some Libertarians would argue this point, but to make such a broad brushed statement would be tantamount to me saying, "Calvinism is the believe that man has absolutely no say in his ultimate destiny, and thus anything which affects one's will by outside forces, such as the preaching of the gospel, is not necessary and thus should not be employed." While some Calvinists may make such arguments I don't assume all those who use that title would.

 

A direct answer to your question is that I petition God to use the Holy Spirit to empower me and others to be of greater effect in showing the lost the gravity of their situation, truth of the gospel,and to reveal more of His nature to them. It would thrill me if God saved all men regardless of their will! This obviously does not happen. God's will is that none should perish but all come to repentance. As a child of God and by extension, I am also not willing that any should perish. Jesus taught us to pray The Fathers will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.(this should also be sufficient to show that we are to pray for peoples salvation.)
You must admit that you influence the lives of those around you. Since you are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells you and enables you to overcome your fleshly nature. At any time you are more or less in tune with Him. God influencing but not overpowering your will. We are also influenced by the physical world which God certainly is involved with. Pray for the lost while they yet live!

 

I agree with this. I have a brother who is very hostile to the gospel, he will get angry if you bring the subject up. Last year our father died and I was able to speak to him about the Lord. He was far more open to the subject than normal.

Now, I didn't pray our father would pass away so I could talk to my brother. Our father was 80 years old and in poor health, his death was natural. But it did soften my brother up.

I pray that God would not give up on my brother. I believe the scriptures show that at a certain point God quits striving with a man.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

God gave Jezebel space to repent, but she would not.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

The scriptures teach that God is patient and longsuffering. But there does seem to be a point at which a man crosses the line. I worry that my brother might do this. So I pray that God would continue to be patient with him and bring about events that might soften his heart and bring him to the Lord.