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Free Will

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martindr, Nov 25, 2019.

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  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The gospel does not "enable" our old nature. The old nature is not really in conflict with itself, but is in conflict with the law of God written upon every person's heart (Romans 2:15).

    Revmitchell knows the following principles, so they are included so that other readers may gain:

    Because believers are a "new creation" a "new creation" and that includes all aspects concerning the attributes - except for sin - of will, desires, perspective, access to wisdom and understanding from God ... (Galatians 6:15; 2 Corinthians 5:1 - 17)

    What believers still in the flesh have is a dual and dueling natures - the old flesh and the new creation. (Romans 6) As believer's mature in Christ, they learn to rely upon the provision and providence of God and as Paul said, crucify the flesh. (Galatians 5:24)

    Believers, in effect, upon crossing over become "like Him" because "flesh and blood" cannot not enter heaven (1 Corinthians 15:50), (and because we currently reside "in the flesh" the new creation is set at "enmity" and there is no rest from the desires of the flesh (Romans 8:9).

    There is more but this is enough for now.
     
  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I cut the rest of the post, merely to attend to this statement.

    I am definitely NOT a friend of Augustine of Hippo. However, just as all men who study Scriptures can at some time be correct, the presentation you made of the "four fold" is very good and biblically sound.

    I am going by memory generated speculation, but the one area, I think, in this that I disagreed with Augustine is his view of a reformed nature (my term) rather than a new nature that is completely separate and created awaiting the release of this fleshy form.

    Because he clung to some after death punishment scheme, his presentation obliged conforming to the attributes of will (desires, longings), the mind (generation of thoughts, and schemes), and in fact the very body (a transformation) remaining intact into the eternity with a reformed imposed by self will and retributive punishments.

    I reject such, because of what I see presenting in the Scriptures as the new nature, the new creation, the new creature (as translated by some) which wars against the old while longing for the release of anything earth bound.

    I don't know that Augustine every got to that understanding.

    I have not read exhaustively of his work, and what I have is more in the shadows and far less of substance.
     
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  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Actually, it isn't a rabbit trail at all.

    I do disagree with you in this area.

    The Scriptures do present that believers are new - not remade from the old.

    The "transformation" is not by remodeling the mind, but by "renewing" the mind. That is a new stands in opposition to that which is old.

    The Ephesians passage is stated in terms of laying aside the old, not reforming and conforming the old. That the Spirit renews (again not remodels, but replaces with new) the spirit of the mind, that there is a "new self" not old remodeled but that new creation (creature) that is incorruptible.

    The Romans quote is not the mind over matter thinking of previous decades psychological behavioral modification thinking.

    Friend, consider that the doctrines of grace present the total inability (depravity) of the fall. That is as Paul said, "nothing good...in my flesh" is that estate of the humankind. But what is it that God brings in Christ? Life. As the Scriptures teach the first Adam became a living soul (flesh) and the second Adam a life - giving spirit.

    Therefore, the presentation, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not," the "willing" is the "life-giving spirit" not the fleshly will that will pass along with all attributes of the flesh.

    This is also part of what (imo) Paul is getting at when presenting the perspective of the human view in that passage of Corinthians 13. We see currently as if illumination is dim and limited. Yet, then, we will know as He knows. Our new mind is not constrained but is as His.
     
  4. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Nope
    Look at our conversation.
    I went through the text and scripture. You reject and provide no hermeneutical evidence for your opinion. Instead, you think saying "Calvin" makes you automatically correct.
    Since you have zero hermeneutical evidence in the text, your opinion is empty and illegitimate.
    Go through the same passage I did and explain how what Peter is telling his readers completely hinges on God willing the entire world (100%) to be saved. I dare you to study the entire text and prove your point.
    Did God save all the people before the flood? Will he save all the people before the fire? Look at the text.
    But, as you and others are want to do, you will say "Calvin" and think you have won an argument. Your laziness is apparent.
     
  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    You confuse "cause" with "author." As a result, you mock what you have little understanding.

    God touches sin all the time. He literally comes into the human condition. How does He not touch sin. He bore our Sin upon Himself, yet remain without sin.

    He is intricately dealing with our sin even beyond our human comprehension. We wrestle with "flesh and blood" matters, but there is a war going on in both the heavenly and that rages even upon the earthly forces of evil.

    As such more often believers have not practiced being truthful, unexercised at being arrayed with doing right by righteousness, and are neglectful of the foundational gospel.

    Therefore, when it comes time to go to battle they are so unfamiliar with those things that they should have been well practiced, they flounder in holding up the shield of faith, and picking up the helmet of salvation and sword of the spirit.

    They are defenseless because they are totally unfamiliar with the equipment.

    You need to step back and become more familiar with the topics of some threads before you post.

    Your reactionary exuberance.

    To directly answer your post, God most certainly does "predetermine" even the dust one sees floating in a stream of light through a window.

    ALL THINGS work together for the believer's good, that includes even that which is sinful. God certainly deals with sin.

    It is sad that you have such little regard for Scriptures that you cannot contain this understanding, yet would mock those that do understand.
     
  6. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    God made an offer they couldn't refuse?
    Share the verses where God says "Here's my proposal, please pick whether you are going to accept me as Savior or reject me as Savior. It's all on you. I'll step out of the way and let you decide. Say I come back in two days. Would that work for you?"
    My goodness. With all your individuals, God chose and God determined their lives. After God chose them, they could obey or disobey. There were consequences for disobeying or obeying, but that was always after God had chosen them and given them a task to do.
    Finally, you make this statement: "God made them an offer they couldn't refuse." If you follow your statement to its conclusion, you recognize you are arguing against free will. The individuals you point at could NOT refuse. That means they had no free will. God said...and they did what God predetermined they would do. As you said..."they couldn't refuse."
    You are arguing with yourself.
    Here's the thing. I was once arguing the same thing you presently argue. As I read scripture and saw the contradiction of my own argument, I let God teach me what He actually said in scripture rather than what I wanted him to say simply because I wanted control rather than God have control. If you will be honest with the text, you will see the error of your argument.
     
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  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The confusion often rests on the modern understanding of will and desire.

    Rather than presenting that God has no need and desire being foundational to interpreting such passages, folks must have a needy God, one that has unfulfilled desires, and therefore lusts, and can become anxiety driven being anxious that He is somehow prevented by lesser creatures from completing the plan.

    It is laughable some of the presentations this modern world will conjure.

    Here is the truth. Peter states God as presenting His best offer.

    He does so to all without regard. He has brought light to the whole world, as John 1 states.

    However, such an offer is not conditioned upon God's attitude nor His emotions.

    As a result, God then must take that action that only He may choose to do to fulfill such plan and outcomes He has determined.
     
  8. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Augustine, like the rest of the church fathers, had some things right and some things wrong. Opponents of Calvinism love to bring that up as though they found a brand new whipping stick with which to lash us with. What they fail to realize is that most of us understand (as I stated in my previous post) the mixture and error of Augustine and the rest of the notable theologians of the Patristic age. That is why we have to tread carefully over the body of theological work that came out of the period. There are some very good things like the opposition to Arianism. But a lot of theology was botched like the predominant view of baptism during that time.
     
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  9. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    With respect, I think you misunderstand me. Either that or I did a poor job of explaining myself.

    Every single Christian is a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17), not just a remade or a better version of the old. The Christian no longer possesses a sin nature. What fellowship does light have with darkness (2 Corinthians 6:14)? Often times sin nature is used interchangeably with the old man.

    While the Christian no longer has a sin nature, his former sin nature still has residual effects. The mind has not been delivered from the memories of sin or of sins deadly pleasures. The same with the body. This is not to be confused with modern psychology or some type of Gnosticism. The fact remains that we wage war against the temptations of our sinful past. We are constantly mortifying the deeds of the flesh. We are still a new creature with a new nature. The old things have, indeed, passed away. This is why Paul tells us to renew or minds. Paul saw the necessity to continually die sin in Romans 8:

    Romans 8:12-13 12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

    So, again, I readily confess that Christians only have one nature which is the Spirit of Christ which dwells in us. I am just calling attention to the reality that the old sin nature has left echos in our life.
     
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  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello Roby,
    Could you help me understand this verse according to your understanding?
    2tim1:
    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
     
  11. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I copied the exact same hermeneutic method used by Sovereign Grace to explain why Ezekiel 36 is written to everyone, not just the Israelites, and either you guys didn't see it (didn't click on the link) or you are ignoring it. Or maybe it flew right over your head.

    Here it is again, if you care to look this time:
    Where Is Free Will?


    Why is it that Calvinists can have an interpretation method go both ways for them? Because they need to be flexible to make their theology fit into scripture. Thus, a prophecy by Ezekiel made specifically to the nation of Israel in Ezekiel 36 is for ALL, but a verse in 2 Peter that says God desires ALL to come to repentance is written only to believers for some far flung future.
     
  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Lack of understanding is your problem.
    The human condition is not sin. The human condition is the result of sin not sin it self. Man commits sin. God does not. If man were sin then God would be the creator of it.
    Predetermination is why Calvinist think of them selves as puppets. They assume God is responsible for everything which leaves them innocent of sin . Your view of predetermination is nonsense. It's not that some things aren't predetermined some things are but sin being predetermined would make us all innocent of breaking any commandments. We cannot be guilty of what we can do nothing about. So predetermination as Calvinist interpret it is not true.
    Can you show scripture where it states all things are predetermined by God?
    MB
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Natural men make choices every day. All agree on that Marty. My point of contention is God has not said anywhere that it exists. Scripture does say we have a will, a self will...we agree.
    Because of the fall into sin and death, whatever Adam's will was pre-fall....it no longer is.
     
  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Know anyone alive now who CANNOT be saved, no matter what?

    If everyone is predestinated with no change in status possible, why did Jesus give the "Great Commission"?

    Why, in John 3:115 & 16, did Jesus say "WHOEVER believes", with NO mention of election ?

    Why did Paul write that "WHOEVER calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" in Romans 10:13?

    Jesus said many other "whoevers" in His recorded words. Whom does this leave out as being eligible ?

    This comes doen to SCRIPTURAL TRUTH vs. your goofy calvinist ideas.
     
  15. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Everybody is dancing around the issue. By arguing about "free will"--which seems to have many definitions--we're getting no clarity.

    Let me try to boil this down to the issue at hand...

    Do humans have the ability to believe in Jesus for their eternal salvation by listening to and considering the gospel?

    A simple yes or no would suffice.

    I say YES.
     
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  16. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Please teach us what Peter is saying in this entire passage so you can justify your interpretation of verse 9.

    Until you actually address the passage, your words are but a gong and clanging cymbals.

    2 Peter 3:1-13 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
     
  17. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    You have just avoided 2 Peter 3:1-13.
    Address it or admit you are wrong.
     
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    No matter how it's looked at it still says
    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    MB
     
  19. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Here is Ezekiel 36. Exegete it for us.
    Only 38 verses for you to go through. I await your understanding of what Ezekiel is discussing.

    Ezekiel 36:1-38 “And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God: Because the enemy said of you, ‘Aha!’ and, ‘The ancient heights have become our possession,’ therefore prophesy, and say, Thus says the Lord God: Precisely because they made you desolate and crushed you from all sides, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you became the talk and evil gossip of the people, therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord God: Thus says the Lord God to the mountains and the hills, the ravines and the valleys, the desolate wastes and the deserted cities, which have become a prey and derision to the rest of the nations all around, therefore thus says the Lord God: Surely I have spoken in my hot jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave my land to themselves as a possession with wholehearted joy and utter contempt, that they might make its pasturelands a prey. Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I have spoken in my jealous wrath, because you have suffered the reproach of the nations. Therefore thus says the Lord God: I swear that the nations that are all around you shall themselves suffer reproach. “But you, O mountains of Israel, shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to my people Israel, for they will soon come home. For behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. And I will multiply people on you, the whole house of Israel, all of it. The cities shall be inhabited and the waste places rebuilt. And I will multiply on you man and beast, and they shall multiply and be fruitful. And I will cause you to be inhabited as in your former times, and will do more good to you than ever before. Then you will know that I am the Lord. I will let people walk on you, even my people Israel. And they shall possess you, and you shall be their inheritance, and you shall no longer bereave them of children. Thus says the Lord God: Because they say to you, ‘You devour people, and you bereave your nation of children,’ therefore you shall no longer devour people and no longer bereave your nation of children, declares the Lord God. And I will not let you hear anymore the reproach of the nations, and you shall no longer bear the disgrace of the peoples and no longer cause your nation to stumble, declares the Lord God.” The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, when the house of Israel lived in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds. Their ways before me were like the uncleanness of a woman in her menstrual impurity. So I poured out my wrath upon them for the blood that they had shed in the land, for the idols with which they had defiled it. I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. In accordance with their ways and their deeds I judged them. But when they came to the nations, wherever they came, they profaned my holy name, in that people said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord, and yet they had to go out of his land.’ But I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they came. “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel. “Thus says the Lord God: On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt. And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, instead of being the desolation that it was in the sight of all who passed by. And they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden, and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ Then the nations that are left all around you shall know that I am the Lord; I have rebuilt the ruined places and replanted that which was desolate. I am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it. “Thus says the Lord God: This also I will let the house of Israel ask me to do for them: to increase their people like a flock. Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”
     
  20. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    LOL, what a cop-out and failure to exegete. Your words are empty.
     
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