Okay, I see your point. But where's the problem?
"Man's will is under constant control forever doing the bidding of God."
Is this not the case? Does any man have power over God's will in any way, shape or form? Again, I have to go back to the line, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." I see tension there, because Joseph's brothers MEANT it for their own selfish, evil reasons. But the first cause was still God. God MEANT it for good. Joseph's brothers wouldn't have done what they did if God had not MEANT for it to happen.
"Men going to Hell by their own choice causes them to be sovereign over their destinies and so God isn't Sovereign any longer."
Again, where's the problem? What else can it mean when Paul says, "19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" That agrees with johnp's statement, because nobody resists His will. But it also says men are responsible. There's the tension that's missing from johnp's statement, but it doesn't contradict his statement.
"God does not permit or allow but is active in all men's wills to work out His purposes."
I addressed this above.
"The reason men go to Hell is because God actively chose that for them. That God works in a man's will to be willing isn't the thing that sends men to Hell it was His choice to send them to Hell prior to their sin."
Again, where's the problem? Is this not true? How did God not actively choose hell for the non-elect before they actually sinned? Yes, that's double-predestination, but how do you get around it?
Freewill bites the dust
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by J.D., Feb 5, 2007.
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Nicholas, all I can say is read guys like Piper or R.C. Sproul's "The Hidden Hand" (I think that's the title - it is on God's providence) and they are not in the same camp as Johnp. Now that doesn't make Johnp wrong, but it should make you scratch your head a little bit. I've done my homework on this, and I am perfectly comfortable with the camp I'm in.
Johnp sees no tension with Joseph and his brothers. Here is what you said:
"I see tension there, because Joseph's brothers MEANT it for their own selfish, evil reasons."
Johnp says that Joseph's brothers did not mean it for their own selfish reasons, because it was not them sinning. It was God causing them to sin.
I agree that God could have stopped them from doing all that they did. We can only sin as much as God will allow. I don't need to defend my Calvinist credentials - I think you know me and where I stand. Johnp says he is an "uncompromising Calvinist". Well, I am a Biblical one. -
P.S. - let post #100 stand as more evidence for the jury.
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Andy, I don't believe tension is there either. But on the other hand, as you said, I also believe there is at least a "thin layer" between God and sin. I will need to study some more on that issue. I have some ideas as to what that thin layer consists of, but if I shared them now I might be embarrased later.
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Hello Allan.
There is a better answer for James and the tempter but for now I will only say that God uses tempters to tempt. 1 Kings 22:20 And the LORD said, `Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
I made a mistake thinking Paul was blind for two days, it was three.
I see no reason to divide salvation and election. Election is salvation sure and certain to come.
For you to be right I must change my bible. Why do you not read what was written instead of imposing your own belief and changing scripture? It does not talk of Israel and Edom but Jacob and Esau. It talks of their mother Rebekah.
The nation of Israel never replaced spiritual Israel. As you say, not all of Israel is Israel but it is only those of the promise that are God's Children and God's Children existed before Abraham and Isaac. Christians are the true Israel along with Israelites like Moses and Peter and Noah.
The promise remains that God will regraft the nation of the Israelites back when He has collected all the elect coming from the Gentiles.
How am I doing?
john. -
Andy.
Not that I'm saying God is guilty, God cannot be guilty unless He decrees a thing He does is sin. I don't think God ever allows us to think He is under some law or other does He? DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"
john. -
I don't know about the thin layer. God obviously cannot sin. He cannot disobey Himself. Anything beyond that is in God's sovereign hands, and we have no grounds upon which to argue against Him. -
Andy T.
And God: :) RO 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
What if man? What if the only reason people go to Hell is for us to see and glory that much more. What are you going to do about it? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " ...who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
concluded : to shut up together, enclose of a shoal of fishes in a net to shut up on all sides, shut up completely
(Strong's)
For God shut all men up completely to disobedience. Trapped by God in sin. All men being Jews and Gentiles.
john. -
Romans 1:11 I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong-- 12 that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith.
Good to see you Nicholas. :)
The "Why does He still blame us... shows that He does. The ..."for who resists His will?" Shows us that all men do His bidding, in particular sinners because of the 'blame' attached.
This runs counter to our notion of justice and our notion of justice is imposed onto God. This is the tension, man comparing himself with God while disregarding scripture for their tradition.
God says He is not unjust when He says He will have mercy on who He wants and when He says He hardens whoever He wants He considers Himself just and makes a point of it. This knowledge is a rare and precious gift.
Grace and peace man. :)
john. -
Fake story:
An NFL defensive lineman took a toddler by the arm, stuck his hand in a cookie jar, then scolded the toddler about getting into the cookies. He stuck the toddlers hand in the cookie jar again. This time he not only scolded the toddler, he also physically punished the toddler. Each time the lineman stuck the toddlers hand into the cookie jar, he got more furious with the toddlers disobedient behavior, and punished the toddler in various ways. Finally he had enough of the toddlers bad behavior, he found the toddler guilty, and tossed it into a furnace to burn to death. Everyone was so impressed with the lineman, they showered him with glorious adulation. What a great guy that lineman. He can do whatever he wishes. He is so great, and the toddler is a dead, guilty, piece of crap. Who cares?!
The end -
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Relax, brother, as far as you're concerned God made me say these things, God made you say those things, God made johnp say his things, and on and on and on. As far as you're concerned, I won't get it unless and until God is willing to make me get it. So, all of this is just a waste of time... WAIT A MINUTE... according to you God is making us waste our time. No, this can't be a waste of time, it is part of a perfect plan, all scripted out. This is so wierd, if you are right, God is just making me ramble on and on and on. Why? I'm feeling convicted now, what am I guilty of? -
Now think of the implications of that truth. It's breath-taking.
Could God be so omniscient and omnipotent that He even determines when my next hair will fall out? It pushes against our nature to accept such a broad truth, but isn't that the God the Bible presents to us?
Think about it. -
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yes I believe God palces every lustful thought and urge and then destorys me for it. that's the only reason i've never been able to change for 12 years.
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Hello Blammo.
ISA 40:18 To whom, then, will you compare God? What image will you compare him to?
An NFL defensive lineman. :)
1 Kings 22:20 has God asking who will entice and sends him off to entice. Entice means to tempt.
1KI 22:22 " `By what means?' the LORD asked.
" `I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" `You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. `Go and do it.'
1KI 22:23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
For if Election IS the same as salvation...Click to expand...
I was a sinner at the first and lousy saint at my best.Click to expand...
john. -
I know this will have no effect on humanists that worship at the altar of human will, potential, and ability; but here's some light from God's word for those that may have a desire to worship and honor the omnipotent God of Glory:Click to expand...
Often times its the stinking pride and arrogancy of some calvinists that gets me annoyed and not so much their theology.
Believe what you will, but as long as you preach the Gospel it matters not to me.
But to try to convince those who have have been predetermined to believe something else just seems a complete contradiction in the whole system to me. -
J.D. said:Blammo, the hairs on my head are numbered. God knows that number. He knows it, not because he counted them, but because he numbered them. I believe that, and I think you believe that too.
Now think of the implications of that truth. It's breath-taking.
Could God be so omniscient and omnipotent that He even determines when my next hair will fall out? It pushes against our nature to accept such a broad truth, but isn't that the God the Bible presents to us?
Think about it.Click to expand...
I have no problem with God making my hair fall out. I'm one of those nice looking bald guys, I wear it well. I would probably look like a "fem" if I had a full head of hair. Pardon my digressing...
I have posted this verse:
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
johnp has informed me "it says 'Father', not God". I guess that means, he believes, the Father is not God. Is "the world" God? I hope you have a better answer to this question, cause I sure wasn't satisfied with john's.
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