Fruits of Calvanism
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by samarelda, Apr 7, 2006.
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pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
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Originally posted by Bill Brown:
I guess what I am trying to say is that I would rather tread carefully on examining the heart attitude of the individual even though I may discount or reject their theology.Click to expand... -
Originally posted by Bill Brown:
We know that James says:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />James 1:13 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.Click to expand...
John 1:3 3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.Click to expand...
I'm just posing the question. </font>[/QUOTE]Here's one way to look at it. We know that God created light, but did God create darkness? No, darkness is not a "thing" that was created, it is simply a word that we use to describe the lack of light. Perhaps in a similar way sin is a lack or a want of conformity to the will of God. If so, then it is improper to say that God 'created' sin, just as no one would say that God created darkness. -
God created Adam with the ability to sin, but He did not create sin.
God created Satan to sin, but He did not create sin.
When Adam sinned by choice, he became fully responsible for sin, not God. And so sin has been passed upon all, and all bear the responsibility for it.
Sin came into the world in accordance with God's PLAN, but not by his ACT. -
Originally posted by J.D.:
God created Adam with the ability to sin, but He did not create sin.
God created Satan to sin, but He did not create sin.
When Adam sinned by choice, he became fully responsible for sin, not God. And so sin has been passed upon all, and all bear the responsibility for it.
Sin came into the world in accordance with God's PLAN, but not by his ACT.Click to expand...
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
God doesn't create or tempt Angel/Man to/with sin,
Sin is the product of a "Free will" independent of God's will
And if you examine Calvins doctrine in the "light" of this,
Then God will become responsible for all righteousness and the sin of all unrighteousness,
Even the sin of Adam/Eve.
God's will can't elect one "HOLY" except it also elect the opposite unholy by "default",
therefore sin is the product of "God's will", not the will of Angel/Man.
The free will of man independent of God's will is taught throughout the scriptures.
God's will is that none perish, but they do.
God's will all come to repentance, but they don't.
God's will all serve him, but they don't.
God's will whole world be saved, but it isn't.
God's will is for "NO SIN", to exist, but it does.
De 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, "IF" ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, "IF" ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God,
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
How can anyone read the scriptures and believe that the "Sovereign will" of God is responsible for even "ONE SIN/DEATH" of a man, when Jesus died for the sins of the whole world to fulfill God's will that none perish????
I really think most Calvinist don't understand the scripture sufficiently to recognize the error of Calvin's doctrine. -
Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
I guess what I am trying to say is that I would rather tread carefully on examining the heart attitude of the individual even though I may discount or reject their theology.Click to expand... -
I really think most Calvinist don't understand the scripture sufficiently to recognize the error of Calvin's doctrine.Click to expand...
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Originally posted by Me4Him:
I really think most Calvinist don't understand the scripture sufficiently to recognize the error of Calvin's doctrine.Click to expand...
First of all, it's not Calvin's doctrine. He gets the "credit" by having his name attached to a doctrine, but he didn't create the doctrine. The doctrine comes straight from the Bible.
Calvin wasn't even the first person to elaborate on the doctrine at length. Luther stated the same things very eloquently in Bondage of the Will, and all of his arguments were based entirely on the Bible.
In fact, having read A.W. Pink, Sproul, Spurgeon, etc., I have yet to read a single work on the doctrine of election that wasn't filled with Biblical proof texts. More important, the proof texts are respected as is, taken at face value, nothing added, nothing speculated.
In sharp contrast, most everything I've read on free will has been based on opinion, tiny snippets of the Bible taken out of context, blanket theological statements based on their opinion of the character of God such as "a righteous God wouldn't do such-and-such", and logical arguments such as "God wouldn't command people to choose if He didn't give them the ability to do so". -
Originally posted by Bill Brown:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I really think most Calvinist don't understand the scripture sufficiently to recognize the error of Calvin's doctrine.Click to expand...
Some within the ranks are "hard core" Calvinist, but over the years I've noticed many of the leaders/directors have "soften" their stand on Calvinism, while we different on this doctrine, it doesn't take precedence over seeing kids saved.
God only reveals scripture in the "time/season" of it's application, and today we know more about the scriptures than any generation before us, and as this knowledge increases many previously held doctrines are going to fall, At the present, the reasons for a pre trib rapture are becoming clearer, so mid trib, post trib are going to fall.
Since the 1950's many minds/doctrine have changed as the book of revelations has been revealed, and I think it's going to continue right on through the Trib until Jesus steps out on the clouds.
But, Thank God, we're not saved according to our knowledge/intelligences, if that were the case, I wouldn't have a "prayer".
Personally, I think calvin would be mad if he knew the extremes to which his doctrine has been taken. -
Originally posted by npetreley:
In sharp contrast, most everything I've read on free will has been based on opinion, tiny snippets of the Bible taken out of context,Click to expand...
Mt 7: and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Would you care to explain how God's sovereign will is that not any perish, yet "many" do???
IF God's will is the "Sovereign Will", then God contradict himself. :confused:
You do understand "sovereign", don't ya??? :D :D -
Originally posted by whatever:
Here's one way to look at it. We know that God created light, but did God create darkness? No, darkness is not a "thing" that was created, it is simply a word that we use to describe the lack of light. Perhaps in a similar way sin is a lack or a want of conformity to the will of God. If so, then it is improper to say that God 'created' sin, just as no one would say that God created darkness.Click to expand... -
Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
In sharp contrast, most everything I've read on free will has been based on opinion, tiny snippets of the Bible taken out of context,Click to expand...
Mt 7: and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Would you care to explain how God's sovereign will is that not any perish, yet "many" do???
IF God's will is the "Sovereign Will", then God contradict himself. :confused:
You do understand "sovereign", don't ya??? :D :D </font>[/QUOTE]This one is easy, thanks!
As I explained in another thread, the context of 2 Peter 3:9 is determined by his audience, who he names as the elect. This is further specified when he says to-usward (toward US, the elect). So when you need to know to whom "any" and "all" refer, you take that from the obvious context.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any [of us, the elect] should perish, but that ALL [of us, the elect] should come to repentance.Click to expand... -
Originally posted by Bill Brown:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
I guess what I am trying to say is that I would rather tread carefully on examining the heart attitude of the individual even though I may discount or reject their theology.Click to expand... -
Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
I guess what I am trying to say is that I would rather tread carefully on examining the heart attitude of the individual even though I may discount or reject their theology.Click to expand... -
Originally posted by Bill Brown:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
I guess what I am trying to say is that I would rather tread carefully on examining the heart attitude of the individual even though I may discount or reject their theology.Click to expand...
Thank you Bill, when I am right I'm right. It doesn't happen often but when it does don't try and take it from me.
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Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by whatever:
Here's one way to look at it. We know that God created light, but did God create darkness? No, darkness is not a "thing" that was created, it is simply a word that we use to describe the lack of light. Perhaps in a similar way sin is a lack or a want of conformity to the will of God. If so, then it is improper to say that God 'created' sin, just as no one would say that God created darkness.Click to expand...
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
But I also know that some will have a reason to say that this verse doesn't mean what it says..... -
Shouldn't you guys start a thread on God and His Relationship To Evil ? The original theme of this thread was different .
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Originally posted by TomMann:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by whatever:
Here's one way to look at it. We know that God created light, but did God create darkness? No, darkness is not a "thing" that was created, it is simply a word that we use to describe the lack of light. Perhaps in a similar way sin is a lack or a want of conformity to the will of God. If so, then it is improper to say that God 'created' sin, just as no one would say that God created darkness.Click to expand...
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
But I also know that some will have a reason to say that this verse doesn't mean what it says..... </font>[/QUOTE]I had a feelin they were gonna get snagged on that! Shows they're human after all. -
Originally posted by TomMann:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by whatever:
Here's one way to look at it. We know that God created light, but did God create darkness? No, darkness is not a "thing" that was created, it is simply a word that we use to describe the lack of light. Perhaps in a similar way sin is a lack or a want of conformity to the will of God. If so, then it is improper to say that God 'created' sin, just as no one would say that God created darkness.Click to expand...
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
But I also know that some will have a reason to say that this verse doesn't mean what it says..... </font>[/QUOTE]Satan brought "iniquity" into the world, but where does scripture say that iniquity originate, in Satan or God??
As I said, when a choice is given, "opposites must exist" by default, or there can't be a "Choice" between the two opposites.
"Free will" is the opposite of "Sovereign will" which doesn't allow an opposite or "choice".
God created the "light" but by giving Adam/Eve a choice, "darkness" was necessarily created by default as the opposite, making a choice possible.
It's not that God "created" the darkness/iniquity, but that he allowed it to exist since nothing can except he allows it.
Satan presented the darkness/iniquity to man, as the opposite of God's light/righteousness, God wasn't the one who "tempted Adam/Eve". -
With all this debate over Calvanism and *Arminism
*Note the above maybe spelled wrong
I take it both side believe
Ephesians 2:8-10
John 3:16-18
All this fuss over nothing. IMHO
If you believe in Jesus you go to Heaven if not then you go to Hell..Its that simple!
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