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Fruits of Calvanism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by samarelda, Apr 7, 2006.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Getting back to the OP ... Ron Comfort said that : " For three years , I would get up in the pulpit to preach , and this group of Calvinists would tear me apart . I remember preaching right before we left the other property in December before the kids went home . That day the Calvinists were up in arms . Brother Surrett came to me after I preached in December , 1996 , and said , ' I think you're going to get some feedback from that message . ' It was like that constantly . "


    Well , I think if a preacher is being solidly biblical he will upset some people and there will be division . Division alone is not bad . How was it brought about ? Are heretics spreading their heresies ? Or , is a scripturally-based message going down rather hard with some of the listeners ? If some students felt that Comfort was uttering biblically erroneous things -- they had a right to voice complaints about it . Perhaps they should have withdrawn from the school . But first , they needed to approach Comfort himself . Yet it is not a Matthew 18 situation . If someone preaches before the public or puts reading materials out to the public , he has to bear the brunt of possible opposition .

    Which leads me to ask -- just what did Comfort preach about that day ? RC knew he would get a negative response . What were the thigs he said in that message ? I wish I knew . But I have a notion he did not proclaim a calvinistic sermon .
     
  2. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Comfort says : " Why in the world does God command us to pray the Lord of the harvest to send forth laborers if they are going to get saved without any human instrumentality ? "

    That kind of nonsensical stuff is common among detractors of Calvinism . They use the term Calvinist or Calvinism but they do not have a clue as to what they are saying . And yet their followers just lap-up their words as if they were authoritative . Means of grace are constantly emphasized in Calvinism . Whitefield , whose very name suggests his evangelical spirit , certainly viewed himself as a tool of the Lord . Prayer is imperative in Calvinistic circles ! All ways for the furtherance of the Kingdom of God are commanded in the Bible . Various means for the Christian to grow in the faith are employed . Believers are exhorted to use what the Lord has ordained in the edification of the Body of Christ . I just don't understand the blinders on Comfort's eyes , unless his vision is impaired by bias .
     
  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Well, I guess I have to take back what I said. You're right.
     
  4. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Is it nonsense, the thing Calvanist miss is that the possibility of changing the future still exist, not only in the life of a person but also the world.

    Jesus was the "light of the world" and now Christians are the light, and people can/do go to hell because Christian don't let their light shine, and the "Christians" are held responsible,

    If the lost was "predestined" then God is "unjustly" holding Christians responsible for a situation in which they could not have "INFLUENCED", either way.

    Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

    18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

    Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Foreknowledge, unlike predestination, can be changed.
     
  5. Bill Brown

    Bill Brown New Member

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    Is it nonsense, the thing Calvanist miss is that the possibility of changing the future still exist, not only in the life of a person but also the world.

    Jesus was the "light of the world" and now Christians are the light, and people can/do go to hell because Christian don't let their light shine, and the "Christians" are held responsible,

    If the lost was "predestined" then God is "unjustly" holding Christians responsible for a situation in which they could not have "INFLUENCED", either way.

    Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

    18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

    Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Foreknowledge, unlike predestination, can be changed.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Whether you know it or not, you are advocating open theism.
     
  6. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Is it nonsense, the thing Calvanist miss is that the possibility of changing the future still exist, not only in the life of a person but also the world.

    Jesus was the "light of the world" and now Christians are the light, and people can/do go to hell because Christian don't let their light shine, and the "Christians" are held responsible,

    If the lost was "predestined" then God is "unjustly" holding Christians responsible for a situation in which they could not have "INFLUENCED", either way.

    Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

    18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

    Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Foreknowledge, unlike predestination, can be changed.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Whether you know it or not, you are advocating open theism.
    </font>[/QUOTE]It's called "RIGHTLY DIVIDING" the word, walking the straight and "NARROW" between Calvinism/Arminian, without falling off on either side. :D :D [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  7. Bill Brown

    Bill Brown New Member

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    Is it nonsense, the thing Calvanist miss is that the possibility of changing the future still exist, not only in the life of a person but also the world.

    Jesus was the "light of the world" and now Christians are the light, and people can/do go to hell because Christian don't let their light shine, and the "Christians" are held responsible,

    If the lost was "predestined" then God is "unjustly" holding Christians responsible for a situation in which they could not have "INFLUENCED", either way.

    Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

    18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

    Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Foreknowledge, unlike predestination, can be changed.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Whether you know it or not, you are advocating open theism.
    </font>[/QUOTE]It's called "RIGHTLY DIVIDING" the word, walking the straight and "NARROW" between Calvinism/Arminian, without falling off on either side. :D :D [​IMG] [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry Me4Him, I don't see it as funny. If God is not, "...the same yesterday, today and forever." If He is not immutable. If God change His mind then we really cannot trust what He says. Just like hyper-Calvinism is a dangerous and heretical fringe view, so is open-theism to the Arminian. I read again your post that caused me to comment and my fears still stand.
     
  8. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Yep, that's Open Theism, alright. Not the first time that he has espoused such. Oh, and I notice that he is SBC. What was that about people saying I was wrong about the SBC and Open Theism in this thread?:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3642.html

    Again, I'm not saying it's rampant, but it is definitely there.
     
  9. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    That is most certainly Open Theism that Me is espousing. Me4Him, I urge to to reconsider and study the Scriptures objectivly for that is a dangerous path you are walking on my friend.
     
  10. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    Comfort says that Calvinism incriminates the love of God and then makes this claim:

    Saddly he didn't do his homework, for here are some instances where Calvin does speak of God's love in his Institues

    This is but one instance.
     
  11. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Bill Brown

    Let me ask you a couple of questions.

    Did God forknow Israel would reject Jesus??

    Why send Jesus "ONLY" to Israel, if God forknew it would be a fruitless effort??

    Was it "possible" for Israel to accept Jesus as Messiah???

    Can any of God's predestine plans or his Sovereign will fail, or does God's Sovereign will predestine failure in his plans??

    The rigidity of Sovereign will/predestination can't answer these questions of why God's Foreknowledge doesn't prevent God from doing these things that doesn't turn out the way God would have preferred.
     
  12. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Ex 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

    God didn't change his mind???

    Didn't God "foreknowledge" tell him they would rebell and he would get mad and think to destroy them and repent???

    The situation could have gone "either way".

    Explain that with predestination/Sovereign will.

    The path I walk is not near as dangerous as the path of people who lean on their own understanding of scripture.

    [ April 12, 2006, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Me4Him ]
     
  13. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Ex 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

    Numbers 3:19 God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of a man that he should repent.

    Since the Bible does not contradict itself, you need to reconsider the way you interpret one or both of these statements.
     
  14. Bill Brown

    Bill Brown New Member

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    God not only foreknew, He predestined the nation to reject the Messiah.

    Acts 2:22-23 22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

    Ephesians 1:11 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

    The emphasis on Ephesians 1:11 is on, "...the counsel of His will."

    Matthew 23:34 - 24:1 34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 "For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

    Jesus came to the Jews first. Witness He was found to be in the temple at twelve years of age(Luke 2:43-52). In verse 49 Jesus said, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?" Jesus identified His Father (via the temple being His house) as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. John writes, John 1:11 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. He came to the Jews. Of this is there is no question among theologians. Jesus did have interaction with Gentiles (ex. the Samartian woman, John 4), but He first came to the Jews.

    No. If Israel had accepted Jesus as Messiah, prophecy would have failed and God's omniscience and His omnipotence would be forfeit. No plan of God can be thwarted.

    Matthew 13:13-16 13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 "And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; And you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; 15 For the heart of this people has become dull, And with their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes Lest they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I should heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

    And why did the group at the bottom of the passage hear? Because their eyes were opened to the truth by Christ.

    Can any of God's predetermined plans or His sovereign will fail? No. I touched in that in my previous response. If His predetermined will fails, He is no longer omniscient or omnipotent. Did God predestine failure in His plans? Yes...failure, sin, disobedience et. al were included in His plans but not failure by Him. God incoporated human failure into His plan. Even though man sins and Satan is bent on defeating God, God's glory and triumph is still assured. By this He is glorified.

    You use the term rigidity. This exposes your opinion and point of view. The bible uses the term unchanging. In theology we call this immutability. Some passages to consider:

    1 Samuel 15:29 29 "And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."

    Isaiah 40:8 8 The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.

    Hebrews 6:17-18 17 In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, 18 in order that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have strong encouragement, we who have fled for refuge in laying hold of the hope set before us.

    Hebrews 13:8 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever.

    1 Peter 1:23-25 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and abiding word of God. 24 For, "All flesh is like grass, And all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, And the flower falls off, 25 But the word of the Lord abides forever." And this is the word which was preached to you.
     
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...or you need to use 'repent' in the context given.
     
  16. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    This is not original with me, but it helps explain.

    When a man repents, he changes his will.
    When God repents, He wills a change.

    I'm always a bit leery of "bumper-sticker" Christianity, but I like this explanation.
     
  17. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    "IF" they were predestined to reject Jesus, then why did Jesus offer to take them under his wing, was his offer a lie or against the will of God, and would/could he if they had accepted him???
    The "plan" was ordained before the foundation of the world.

    Only the saved receive an "Inheritance", nothing is mentioned about the lost.
    2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Quite obviously some don't follow the council of his will, but if it's for none to perish, why does "ONE" perish???

    In the opening you said the Jews were predestined to reject Jesus, but scripture says the reason was not predestination, but their unwilling, Jesus said he would, they wouldn't.


    Which was it, God's will or their will??

    Do you see how calvin's doctrine of predestination accuses God of being responsibility for men rejecting Jesus/God??


    Evidently it wasn't "God plan" for them to reject, else the offer to take them under his wings was a "lie", would you buy that???


    The reason Israel rejected Jesus was because "they closed their eyes", not God's predestination as Calvinist claim, they had the "FREEDOM" to chose, and they went down the road they chose, they reaped what they sowed.

    The choice to open/close your eyes to the truth is one the person makes, they closed their eyes, not God, Jesus would have, they wouldn't.

    A lifetime, or even the lifetime of this planet is "Short" compared to eternity,

    What purpose would be served in giving life to an individual for a "nanosecond" then casting them into hell, never to be remembered by God or us.

    Let me tell you something right up front,

    God gets his glory out of saving people not condemning them.

    God loved all sinner, Jesus died for all sins because God wasn't willing for any to perish,

    But they do in spite of God's love, Jesus's Death, God's will,

    Has God changed his mind??

    Quite obviously, God will isn't "sovereign" in the area of choices people make, they can close their eyes if they chose.

    Calvin denies that we have that choice, saying Israel was predestined to reject Jesus, rather the fault of them closing their eyes, unwilling to accept him, even predestining some to hell even though it's not God's will for any to perish,

    HAS GOD CHANGED HIS MIND

    Calvin denies man reaps what man sows, and claims that man reaps only what God predestine, this of course removes any/all responsibility of man for any/every thing that occurs in the world, even Adam's sin, Israel rejecting Jesus.
     
  18. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    The Bible also says that God made the sun and the moon stop moving around the earth.

    Joshua 10:13 - And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.

    Does that verse also mean what it says? Of course it does, but is it saying what you think it is saying? Probably not.
     
  19. Bill Brown

    Bill Brown New Member

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    In your response to my previous post a great many of your statements were similar to the one above. You question why God would do "X" if "Y" was predestined. I think those are excellent questions that are answered in the text. Many others (from the Calvinist point of view) have articulated their response on this debate better than I. Neither of us would be breaking new ground by continuing it. My only comment will be as follows:

    God is sovereign and His will cannot be thwarted by angels or men. So why does God make statements that seem to contradict His predetermined plan(s)? It is not for His sake but for our sake. The supposed changes that God makes are also included in His sovereignty. When God relented on the calamity that He was going to bring on Nineveh, did He really relent or was Nineveh's repentance predestined? Nineveh's repentance was predetermined by God. I know, I know...you and I will disagree on that. Fine. No problem. Like I have said so many times (and will continue to say), "We're not going to agree." I am not seeking agreement, I am seeking to articulate what I believe the bible is teaching. I leave the convicting and mind-changing to God.

    As far as Jesus's statement regarding Jerusalem...even though Jesus is God and knew that Israel would reject Him, He never ceased being a man. He had human emotions. Israel's rejection of their Messiah must have hurt Him deeply. The passage is dripping with the sorrow of Christ over disobedient Israel. They would/could not accept Him as Messiah since prophesy said they would not. But that did not stop Jesus from grieving in His humanity.

    Me4Him, lets keep the dialouge going. I enjoy the opportunity to hear and be heard on this topic.
     
  20. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    The "REGIDITY" (Unyielding) of Predestination/Sovereign will doesn't provide explanations for alternative outcome of events that occur in the world against the "Will of God".

    Predestination/Sovereign will can't explain why Jesus was send/offered to take a people under his wings whom were "predestined" by the "Sovereign will" of God to reject Jesus.


    So why does people perish when God said it wasn't his "WILL"??

    The regidity of sovereign will doesn't/can't explain that.

    Nineveh (Gentiles) repented at the preaching of a "prophet" from "Galilee", Jonah, a "Foreshadow" of Jesus which the Jews deny.

    Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

    Mt 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.

    Joh 7:52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

    NO, it was not "predestined" for them to reject him, that "CHOICE" was one they made, not God.

    Jesus not only "COULD" but "WOULD" have taken them under his wings, his offer was just as real to them as it is to the whole world, however their "UNBELIEF" prevented it, not God's will/predestination.

    Calvin doctrine explains the outcome of events as being the "Will of God" according to "predestination", rather than the "Personal belief" of individuals.

    This in turn would deny that Jesus's offer to Israel, the whole world, is a "GENUINE", "CERTIFIED" offer of salvation, with the outcome based on their "Belief/Unbelief", instead than "GOD'S WILL".

    This is the "CHOICE" God sets before man.

    De 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

    27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

    28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God,


    If God's "sovereign will" was "supreme" over our "CHOICE", then all would either be saved or God would be a lair.

    2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Quite obvioulsy, God's will isn't being carried out, so evidently that "choice" set before man in the garden is still functioning today.

    Calvin's doctrine has no explanation for the outcome of events which are clearly "against the will of God".
     
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