That is the hinge point.
Our difference is that I believe one can only be saved if they meet that "if" (the condition....have a faith that endures to the end).
You seem to believe that salvation includes both those who meet that condition as well as those who cannot be called "of His house", "known by Christ", and "partakers in Christ" based on that "if" statement with the latter loosing their salvation (falling away).
It isn't a difference that would divide us (we would have the same view towards those who leave the faith).
Genuine Salvation is Forever
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by MrW, Mar 4, 2024.
Page 5 of 9
-
-
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
revert
verb
re·vert ri-ˈvərt
reverted; reverting; reverts
Synonyms of revert
intransitive verb
1
: to come or go back (as to a former condition, period, or subject)
When a Christian reverts to sin, he is going back to the condition that he was in before he was saved. -
Silverhair Well-Known MemberI would state it a bit different. It is not that the could not meet the condition, they had met it and were called "of His house", "known by Christ", and "partakers in Christ". It is that they did not continue in the position through continuing faith. As you said they fell away.
We were saved through faith in the risen Christ
We are being saved through a continuing faith in Christ
We will be saved when we are with Christ in heaven -
I don't understand your first paragraph.
In the passage the condition of being "of His house", and "partakers of Christ" is "holding fast to the end".
If they did not hold fast to the end, how did they meet the condition of holding fast until the end? -
My point is being saved from sin is being saved from the consequences of sin.
If one reverts back one was never saved from.
If you take a medicine that saves you from a disease but year later get that disease you were not saved from that disease. Ypu just thought you were.
Also, the passage in question was written in Greek, not English. -
@Silverhair,
Question regarding 2 Corinthians 13:5, Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? What is the point of it, if it ultimately really makes no difference in rejection of the Faith? -
Silverhair Well-Known MemberJon through faith in Christ Jesus they are "of His house", and "partakers of Christ" and "if" they continue to be of faith they will continue to be "of His house", and "partakers of Christ".
You are missing the hinge condition "IF". They must meet the condition if they are to remain in Christ. In other words they must hold fast.
When is a person considered to be "in Christ"? Is it not when one trust's in Him? Are we not saved when we are in Him? -
Silverhair Well-Known Member@37818 what do you think those words mean? You are just avoiding the obvious. What did they fall away from if not salvation?
That is what the text say " and then have fallen away". They exercised their free will to reject the salvation that they already had in Christ Jesus. -
I agree faith (belief) is a condition. But there is such a thing as a "dead, useless" faith. There is also a false belief and those who hold ot will hear "I never knew you". This is why we are told to examine ourselves and to test our faith.
The verses we looked at seem to assume a type of belief exists. The only condition in those verses to be "of His house" and "partakers of Christ" is that we hold fast to the end.
The Jewish question was what we could see in this life that demonstrates we would be saved (that we are of God's house). They believed tge Jew was chosen by virtue of their national identity, but they still had to meet the covenantal requirements. Their answer was typically related to purity laws (and this developed onto several sects).
You are forgetting that Hebrews was written to Hebrew people and on that context.
Salvation - by definition - applies only to those who are actually saved and this is only those whose faith endures. -
The unsaved do fall away from salvation. 2 Peter 2:1, . . . denying the Lord that bought them, . . .
Understand, I am of the view point, that those who "fall away" were never saved. Romans 8:9. -
Silverhair Well-Known MemberYes this was written to Hebrews, and we see from Heb 3:1 that they were believing Jews. “Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus”
With this in mind we see why the warning verses were written. They, being Jews, would have grown up considering they were saved being that they were of the house of Abraham. But they were no longer of Abraham’s house but now, through faith in Him, they were of the house of Christ.
The warning verses make it clear that while they were at present part of the house of Christ this would only be true if they held fast to the truth. The confidence and hope firm to the end.
This truth was as applicable to the Jews and Gentiles of that time as it is to ours.
We can know we are saved IF we continue to trust in the saving one, Christ Jesus.
Jon what does the bible tell us about salvation?
Rom_10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. NKJV
It does not say “so that you will have salvation sometime in the future” Salvation is a present reality for those that believe. Other than that all the warning passages are without meaning. -
Silverhair Well-Known MemberYes I understand that that is your position. But you have still not dealt with the obvious problem. How can they fall away from a position they have not held. That is an illogical position for you to hold.
I can not say I am falling away from trusting in the god of Islam since I have never trusted in that god. Just the same a person cannot say they are falling away from a salvation that they never had. -
2 Peter 2:1. You think were previously saved?
Matthew 7:21-23? -
If the sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross was not efficacious to save us from sin, we need a real savior.
Matt. 1:21 τέξεται δὲ υἱὸν καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν, αὐτὸς γὰρ σώσει τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν αὐτῶν.
There is no mention in this verse of the consequences of sin, but rather of sin itself! -
Silverhair Well-Known MemberThe context really does not say one way or the other regarding the false prophets. Why do you think they were unsaved, what text do you base it upon?
[QUOTE="37818, post: 2879453, member: 14338"Matthew 7:21-23?[/QUOTE]
Just because someone claims to believe does not mean that they do. Only God know who really believes so why do you think you can judge who is or is not?
When the bible indicates that they are saved then I conclude they are if it indicates they are not then I understand it that way. But if it is not clear then I do not make that judgement either way. -
2 Peter 2:20. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment that was passed on to them.
22. It has happened to them according to the true proverb,
“The dog turns back to its own vomit,”
and,
“The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud.”
This passage of scripture is not about “mere knowing,” it is about persons who had fully known (ἐπιγνοῦσιν BDAG, P. 369) the “way of righteousness.” That is, it is about persons who had personally experienced and enjoyed having escaped, through their personal relationship with Christ, the defilements of the world.
Acts 9:2. and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any who belonged to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
Acts 19:25. He had been instructed in the Way of the Lord; and he spoke with burning enthusiasm and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John.
26. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained the Way of God to him more accurately.
Acts 19:9. When some stubbornly refused to believe and spoke evil of the Way before the congregation, he left them, taking the disciples with him, and argued daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. {Other ancient authorities read [of a certain Tyrannus, from eleven o'clock in the morning to four in the afternoon]}
Acts 19:23. About that time no little disturbance broke out concerning the Way.
Acts 22:4. I persecuted this Way up to the point of death by binding both men and women and putting them in prison,
Acts 24:14. But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our ancestors, believing everything laid down according to the law or written in the prophets.
Acts 24:22. But Felix, who was rather well informed about the Way, adjourned the hearing with the comment, "When Lysias the tribune comes down, I will decide your case.”
Notice that in these Scriptures from Acts, the word “Way” is capitalized in the NRSV and in some other translations as well (see, for examples, the NAB, the RSV, and the ESV). It is capitalized because it is what the earliest Christians called their belief system, and what we today call Christianity. For very extensive documentation, please see Craig S. Keener’s 4,615-page commentary on Acts published by Baker Academic as Acts: An Exegetical Commentary in four very large volumes during the years 2012-2015.
This designation for the Christian faith is sometimes expanded in the Scriptures to “the way of truth,” (2 Peter 2:2) and “the way of righteousness” (2 Peter 2:21” where the meaning is essentially the same but emphasizes the experience of being in Christ. That this is the correct interpretation is confirmed in the very next verse where a sow that has been thoroughly washed (λουτροῦ ) rather than just rinsed off returns to the mud—an allusion to Titus 3:5,
5. he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, (RSV)
In this verse, Paul uses the cognate noun of the aorist participle used in 2 Peter 2:22.
(All quotations from Scripture are from the NRSV unless otherwise noted) -
His Incarnation, suffering, death and resurrection was enough.
That is my point.
You present that we cannot sin if we are saved and remained saved, but saying us from sin is saving us from sin's consequences.
If you are saved from an alligator you are saved from what that animal would do to you - it's consequences. -
Scripture tells us that we must repeat and believe. But Scripture also clarifies that not all belief saves and even thar many who believe they believe will cry out "Lord, Lord" only to hear "I never know you".
Many passages say that salvation will be realized in the future. I agree with you that it is also a present reality.
The difference is I believe it is the exact same salvation.
If you believe and continue in that belief until the end then you were saved the moment you believed.
If you believe and stop believing your belief was not true. -
It doesn't say they put their trust in Christ.
Romans 8:9. There is no evidence of receiving the Spirit of Christ. -
Not so. God cannot lie. “I never knew you.”
Page 5 of 9