God’s view of today’s Tea Party

[Tom Bryant]

Tom...

Sunday is just another day of the week. God is no respecter of days in this sense. We are Gods people every day of the week and we are on mission every day of the week...even on Sunday.

A person can be born of the Spirit any day of the week, and in any of a million particular situations.

Our regular gatherings are of course a blessing, but there is no special day of the week.

never said there was. But since we gather to preach the Word, I think it's rather special.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Amy.G

You asked..........

“Still learning, I don't understand what you're saying here. How do think our government should be run? If "normal" people aren't supposed to govern, who do you think should?”

One of my main points has been lost:
My first point was.........

-THREE THINGS....THAT ?SHOULD? MAKE US UNEASY-
(But no longer do
--------------------------------------------------
Because we have been influenced:
by this wicked world!

My point is, all of us have lived in a Christ rejecting world, all of our lives.
A world that is in Spiritual darkness and doesn’t know which end is up.
Therefore, there is a “possibility”, that our points of view, have been effected.

Then I came to the passage of Scripture(Proverbs 30:21-23), and proposed that “maybe” our view of things like “political leadership”, “Democracy”, “homosexual rights” and “A casteless society”, have been effected by the Spiritual darkness of this world.

For instance, the idea of a society of castes, isn’t necessarily wicked or ungodly.
(Maybe we have just been conditioned to think that it is!)

As for the subject of our political leaders; The Bible says........
“For a servant when he reigneth;"

I got the impression from this verse, that the Lord might be telling us, that a politician, might be a better political leader, than a plumber.

For sure, I identify more with a plumber, than a politician, but the politician might do a better job?
--------------------------------------------------
Next you said........

“Our government was founded on the principle of "by the people, and for the people". What do you find wrong with that?”

I am glad you asked this question.
In Daniel 2:, God gave the king a dream of a statue with a head and shoulders of gold.
But lets take a look at it’s feet........
Daniel 2:41-43
V.41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
V.42 And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
V.43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Now the iron, is the old Roman empire, but what is the clay?
Well V.43 gives us a clue, with “they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men”.

I interpret this as a government that is “by the people, and for the people”!

Now put that together with the fact, that the Lord judged all the forms of government represented by this statue, as decreasing in value, from head to toe and we find out that Democracy, is at the bottom of God’s list.

 

[HankD]

Christ said "seek ye first the kingdom of God" not "seek ye only the Kingdom of God"

It's not wrong to be involved with earthly things like politics and the government in their proper priority and moderation.

In fact praying for those in office is a biblical directive.

1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour.​

HankD

 

[Tom Bryant]

I am glad you asked this question.
In Daniel 2:, God gave the king a dream of a statue with a head and shoulders of gold.
But lets take a look at it’s feet........
Daniel 2:41-43
V.41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
V.42 And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
V.43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Now the iron, is the old Roman empire, but what is the clay?
Well V.43 gives us a clue, with “they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men”.

I interpret this as a government that is “by the people, and for the people”!

Now put that together with the fact, that the Lord judged all the forms of government represented by this statue, as decreasing in value, from head to toe and we find out that Democracy, is at the bottom of God’s list.

Glad you're name is still learning. I hope you'll live up to your name because this is just whacked.
:BangHead:

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Did you not see, that all I am doing is quoting Scripture.

...

I am simply pointing out what this part of Scripture seems to say.

No you’re not simply quoting scripture, you are twisting it to say something it doesn’t.

You quote Proverbs 30:23b, “an handmaid that is heir to her mistress.” Then you take that phrase and try to use it to advocate a caste system that is opposed to other scriptures. The problem in this verse is not the handmaiden, it is that the woman had no children. You could take this same passage and use it to say that the thing “none of us should tolerate” (your words)is women who put off getting married and having children.

You quoted Prov 30:23a, an odious woman when she is married. You rightfully point out that the subject “woman” is not in the Hebrew and the word Odious can refer to any hateful person. But you mess up the word married. The Hebrew here is ba’al and it can mean be husband or lord over. It does not necessarily mean married but can mean anyone who is ruled over. The verse is talking about anyone who hates those who have rightful rule over them. This fits into the context of the passage which says we should not revolt against our laws but should work within them for change. Which is exactly what the tea party is doing, working within our system of government.

You really mess up your explanation of verse 22. If a fool filled with meat is something that is bad how about looking down at verse 25 which praises the wisdom of the ants in preparing for their winter. Those two verses (Proverbs 30:22 and 25) come real close to saying, “if any would not work, neither should he eat.” (that’s also in II Thes 3:10)

Now it my turn to say wow, because you started out saying, “I think”!

This may be what you think, but the Bible seem to clearly say, that God “hates” rebellion.
Now it’s clear, that voting, is not rebellion, but some forms of “speaking out”, may be considered rebellion.

Yes I shared my opinion, but I also backed it up with scripture did I not?

I will agree with you that some forms of "speaking out" could be considered rebellion, but those are not the forms the tea party has used. Breaking laws, spreading lies, and destroying property have pretty much been tools used by those opposed to the tea party.

 

[stilllearning]

No you’re not simply quoting scripture, you are twisting it to say something it doesn’t.

You quote Proverbs 30:23b, “an handmaid that is heir to her mistress.” Then you take that phrase and try to use it to advocate a caste system that is opposed to other scriptures. The problem in this verse is not the handmaiden, it is that the woman had no children. You could take this same passage and use it to say that the thing “none of us should tolerate” (your words)is women who put off getting married and having children.

You quoted Prov 30:23a, an odious woman when she is married. You rightfully point out that the subject “woman” is not in the Hebrew and the word Odious can refer to any hateful person. But you mess up the word married. The Hebrew here is ba’al and it can mean be husband or lord over. It does not necessarily mean married but can mean anyone who is ruled over. The verse is talking about anyone who hates those who have rightful rule over them. This fits into the context of the passage which says we should not revolt against our laws but should work within them for change. Which is exactly what the tea party is doing, working within our system of government.

You really mess up your explanation of verse 22. If a fool filled with meat is something that is bad how about looking down at verse 25 which praises the wisdom of the ants in preparing for their winter. Those two verses (Proverbs 30:22 and 25) come real close to saying, “if any would not work, neither should he eat.” (that’s also in II Thes 3:10)

Yes I shared my opinion, but I also backed it up with scripture did I not?

I will agree with you that some forms of "speaking out" could be considered rebellion, but those are not the forms the tea party has used. Breaking laws, spreading lies, and destroying property have pretty much been tools used by those opposed to the tea party.

Thank you very much, for your input.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Tom

Thanks for your response.

May I have your interpretation of........“they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men”.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Hi Tom

Thanks for your response.

May I have your interpretation of........“they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men”.

I think it deals with the Roman empire when it was mixed with the various tribal groups from europe later on.

I've been searching for anyone who thot that the seed of men dealt with democracy.

But our form of gov't is not really a democracy, it is a federated republic which is far different.

 

[stilllearning]

I think it deals with the Roman empire when it was mixed with the various tribal groups from europe later on.

I've been searching for anyone who thot that the seed of men dealt with democracy.

But our form of gov't is not really a democracy, it is a federated republic which is far different.

Our founding fathers, intended for our government to always be a republic(ruled by laws not men), just as I said in my OP; but over the years it has gotten away from that, and is now no more than a simple democracy.

But when I identified this verse with democracy, I am was not even considering the Government of the United States(it won’t be around at the end anyway), I was referring to the assorted democratic governments, over the rest of the world.

Therefore my interpretation, is more closely linked to yours, than you thought!

 

[Alive in Christ]

never said there was. But since we gather to preach the Word, I think it's rather special.

I do, to. But the word is being preached 7 days a week, because people are sharing Christ with other people every day of the week.

I like this little thing I heard about several years ago

There was a church that had a sign above the front door. The sign said "Now is when the ministry begins."

It was on the INSIDE of the front door. People see as they are LEAVING the church.

:thumbs:

 

[rbell]

Our founding fathers, intended for our government to always be a republic(ruled by laws not men), just as I said in my OP; but over the years it has gotten away from that, and is now no more than a simple democracy.

Agreed that we're not where we were, or should be...but we are by no means a straight-up democracy.

Still trying to figure out where on earth you pulled this caste system stuff from.

And since I assume you buy into that...who should we assume should be members of the "slave" caste? And who should own them?

 

[stilllearning]

Agreed that we're not where we were, or should be...but we are by no means a straight-up democracy.

Still trying to figure out where on earth you pulled this caste system stuff from.

And since I assume you buy into that...who should we assume should be members of the "slave" caste? And who should own them?

Here is what I said earlier, to explain what I meant, when I brought up the subject of castes..........

One of my main points has been lost:
The first point of my OP was.........

-THREE THINGS....THAT ?SHOULD? MAKE US UNEASY-
(But no longer do
--------------------------------------------------
Because we have been influenced:
by this wicked world!

My point is, all of us have lived in a Christ rejecting world, all of our lives.
A world that is in Spiritual darkness and doesn’t know which end is up.
Therefore, there is a “possibility”, that our points of view, have been effected.

Then I came to the passage of Scripture(Proverbs 30:21-23), and proposed that “maybe” our view of things like “political leadership”, “Democracy”, “homosexual rights” and “A casteless society”, have been effected by the Spiritual darkness of this world.

For instance, the idea of a society of castes, isn’t necessarily wicked or ungodly.
(Maybe we have just been conditioned to think that it is!)


As for your question.......

“And since I assume you buy into that...who should we assume should be members of the "slave" caste? And who should own them?”

I am already a member of that caste, because of my financial status;
As for who owns me; Probably the rich, but I am ultimately the servant of Christ.

 

[Aaron]

Proverbs 30:21-23
V.21 For three [things] the earth is disquieted, and for four [which] it cannot bear:
V.22 For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat;
V.23 For an odious [woman] when she is married; and an handmaid that is heir to her mistress.

===================================================================
“For three [things] the earth is disquieted,”
V.21A -THREE THINGS....THAT ❝SHOULD❞ MAKE US UNEASY-
(But no longer do
--------------------------------------------------
Because we have been influenced:
by this wicked world!
===================================================================
“and for four [which] it cannot bear: “
V.21B -A FOURTH THING.....THAT SHOULD BE INTOLERABLE-
(But it really isn’t to us
--------------------------------------------------
But according to God’s Word, it should be!
===================================================================
“For a servant when he reigneth;”
V.22A -A SURPRISING STATEMENT....TO FIND IN GOD’S WORD-
i.e. (Especially in light of yesterday’s election
With all the “tea party” wins:
------------------------
Regular people shouldn’t run the government!
“servant” Lit.(someone unprepared)
--------------------------------------------------
-THIS GOES BACK TO......GOD’S VIEW OF DEMOCRACY-
That we see in Daniel 2:31, with the head of gold:
I.e. The kind of government God thinks is best!
------------------------
Thus.....we are really suppose to have:
A Republic!
===================================================================
“and a fool when he is filled with meat;”
V.22B -THE MAIN PROBLEM.....WITH A DEMOCRACY-
(People can vote..to give themselves things
------------------------
Thus a fool...will be filled with meat!
--------------------------------------------------
-THE REASON.....THIS SYSTEM WILL NOT WORK FOR LONG-
Because this meat is coming from somewhere!
===================================================================
“For an odious [woman] when she is married;”
V.23A -GOD’S......”PROPHETIC” WARNING TO DEMOCRACY-
(The kind of world it will give us
-------------------------------------------------
➀ “odious” Lit.(A hateful person
➁ “woman” (Is in italics
➂ “married” (The rights of marriage
------------------------
= Hateful people wanting the rights of marriage!
--------------------------------------------------
Democracy is the only government:
That puts up with homosexuality!
===================================================================
“and an handmaid that is heir to her mistress.”
V.23B -SOMETHING THAT NONE OF.....US SHOULD TOLERATE-
(People moving out of their place
A casteless society!
---------------------
This should be intolerable to us?!?
--------------------------------------------------
-THE BENEFITS....OF PEOPLE BEING IN DIFFERENT ❝CASTES❞-
Less crime & more order:
Still a freedom to witness to others in your own caste!

God's view of human governments is as ravening beasts that bite and devour (Nebuchadnezzar's dream notwithstanding). His commandments to human governments is that they do justice, punish the evildoer and praise those who do well.

Government created to establish justice and ensure domestic tranquility, a government yoked by law, God's law, is pleasing to Him. Those officers are His ministers.

 

[rbell]

My point is, all of us have lived in a Christ rejecting world, all of our lives. A world that is in Spiritual darkness and doesn’t know which end is up. Therefore, there is a “possibility”, that our points of view, have been effected.

Just because we live in a fallen world--that doesn't mean "hey, any idea I think is a bad one--it must be good!"

Then I came to the passage of Scripture(Proverbs 30:21-23), and proposed that “maybe” our view of things like “political leadership”, “Democracy”, “homosexual rights” and “A casteless society”, have been effected by the Spiritual darkness of this world.

OK, building an entire political worldview on three verses out of Proverbs? Wow. Wee bit of context is your friend.

And frankly, you lost me on this. "Political leadership" is an amoral concept. "Democracy" is a govnermental system--and can be widely interpreted; thus, who knows what it might mean. "Homosexual rights?" Don't even know why you threw that in there, or what it had to do with the rest. Then we come to "casteless society..."

If it is your contention that we should live our society exactly as described (once again--we should delineate between described and prescribed)--then we must re-institute slavery; allow for polygamy; view and treat women as property; allow for the killing of rebellious children by their parents; and more.

No thinking person desires all of those things.

For instance, the idea of a society of castes, isn’t necessarily wicked or ungodly. (Maybe we have just been conditioned to think that it is!)

Wicked? Maybe not. Inferior? Without question. A stratified caste-based society is inferior to ours--one in which an individual, due to initiative, hard work, and willingness to strive for excellence--and we are blessed to live in such a setting today.

And since I assume you buy into that...who should we assume should be members of the "slave" caste? And who should own them?

I am already a member of that caste, because of my financial status;
As for who owns me; Probably the rich, but I am ultimately the servant of Christ.

Nice-sounding answer--but way too evasive.

I'm sorry, but I seriously doubt you resemble anything near a true "slave" caste. And we're back to the original problem: if you are going to treat the descriptive as prescriptive, then all-out, full-blown societal issues we have long eliminated (such as slavery, women as property, polygamy, revenge killings, etc.,) have to be allowed.

 

[menageriekeeper]

:
Originally Posted by stilllearning
Hi Tom

Thanks for your response.

May I have your interpretation of........“they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men”.

I think it deals with the Roman empire when it was mixed with the various tribal groups from europe later on.

I think you have both looked too far ahead. It was the Jewish people who were warned not to mingle theirselves with other nations and no one knew the results of that better than Solomon (the supposed author of Proverbs) who had more women from other lands than he knew what to do with and they led him away from God and His commands.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello menageriekeeper

You said........

“I think you have both looked too far ahead. It was the Jewish people who were warned not to mingle theirselves with other nations and no one knew the results of that better than Solomon (the supposed author of Proverbs) who had more women from other lands than he knew what to do with and they led him away from God and His commands.”

So your interpretation of.....“they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men”, is that it is a warning to the Jew.
Than who do you think the “iron” represents?
--------------------------------------------------
And I was also very sorry to see you add the words.....”(the supposed author of Proverbs)”.

One of Satan’s attacks upon God’s Word, is to cast doubt upon its human authors.

 

[rbell]

So, MK, how does it feel to be a tool of Satan?

Careful...you'll end up in the "tool of Satan" caste, forever to remain...


Stilllearning, MK holds God's word in high regard. Trust me--you misunderstood her point.

 

[stilllearning]

So, MK, how does it feel to be a tool of Satan?

Careful...you'll end up in the "tool of Satan" caste, forever to remain...


Stilllearning, MK holds God's word in high regard. Trust me--you misunderstood her point.

It is also clear, that you misunderstood my post.

 

[rbell]

It is also clear, that you misunderstood my post.

Then I apologize for my outburst. Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

 

[sag38]

SL, before posting you may want to think of a few things:
1. Have I thought through what I am posting to it's logical conclusion?
2. Will readers be able to clearly understand what I am posting?
3. Is there a danger of my post being misinterpreted? If so, then perhaps I should reword.
4. Maybe I should leave my random thoughts to myself instead of risking looking like a _____________.