God's Sovreignty : This is Scary

[Salamander]

Why is God unwilling or unable to stop man's evil acts?

It's not that He is either. If He did, then man couldn't be held accountable for his willful deeds now could he?

I suppose that's really it: if a man believes that God is Sovereign in all aspects including causing man to sin, responsible for at least some evil acts (in His judgement, that is), then man would have reason to accuse God.

Doesn't everyone see the evil in thinking God is more than Sovereign?

God cannot be sovereign over all actions, else he is responsible for all sin too. God would then be also satan.

Now ask yourself this question: "Is God responsible for the first sin and held accountable for that sin?"

Let me answer it for you, NO!raying:

raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[reformedbeliever]

God is responsible for all the material that exists to make sin a possibility. God provided all the material for my automobile to exist. God did not manufacture my automobile. Man manufactured my automobile from materials that God made available. Same way with sin. God gave us freedom of choice. (notice I didn't say free will) The possibility of sin exists. Man manufactured sin when he chose that which is against God's perfect goodness or nature. Does this make sense Salamander? God created satan. Did God cause satan to choose to rebel? NO? Are you sure? What about in His providence? If God is all knowing, then the future exists as He knows it and can not be variable, or He would not know the future. Does God put the variables in place which will make us choose in a maner that is consistent with what God knows will happen? In other words... we will always choose in a maner that is consistent with God's decreed will. We do not make choices in a vaccuum. Grace and peace

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I don't think anyone will argue that God allows things to happen. The question was: does God advocate it, to which a clear answer was not given, only other leading questions.

If God wanted to, could he have stopped the holocaust before he did?

If you answered yes to the first question, then please explain to me why he didn't, and you will have the answer to your question.

If you answered no to the first question, then please explain to me how you reconcile this with his omnipotence and the very concept of him being God.

Thanks,

Joseph Botwinick

 

[whatever]

It's not that He is either. If He did, then man couldn't be held accountable for his willful deeds now could he?

I suppose that's really it: if a man believes that God is Sovereign in all aspects including causing man to sin, responsible for at least some evil acts (in His judgement, that is), then man would have reason to accuse God.

Doesn't everyone see the evil in thinking God is more than Sovereign?

God cannot be sovereign over all actions, else he is responsible for all sin too. God would then be also satan.

Now ask yourself this question: "Is God responsible for the first sin and held accountable for that sin?"

Let me answer it for you, NO!raying:

raise: :Fish: raise:

Who took Job's camels?

 

[whatever]

Joseph's answer from the last page where he was asked point blank does God advocate rape and child molestation. Should be an easy yes / no answer.

Nothing Joseph said even hinted at God advocating rape or any other sin. The question was a red herring and deserved to go unanswered.

 

[Salamander]

reformed said,"God is responsible for all the material that exists to make sin a possibility. God provided all the material for my automobile to exist. God did not manufacture my automobile. Man manufactured my automobile from materials that God made available. Same way with sin. God gave us freedom of choice. (notice I didn't say free will) The possibility of sin exists. Man manufactured sin when he chose that which is against God's perfect goodness or nature. Does this make sense Salamander? God created satan. Did God cause satan to choose to rebel? NO? Are you sure? What about in His providence? If God is all knowing, then the future exists as He knows it and can not be variable, or He would not know the future. Does God put the variables in place which will make us choose in a maner that is consistent with what God knows will happen? In other words... we will always choose in a maner that is consistent with God's decreed will. We do not make choices in a vaccuum. Grace and peace"

God is responsible for creating all material and all the synthesized material man made, for God made al the elements to react the way they do. God allowed man to have the wisdom to know how to eventually manufacture an automobile and much greater appertunances. God gave us the will to choose freely but not without recompence. Sin exists because of Lucifer in his rebellion against the Most High and led away 1/3 of the angellic host and only thinks he can be like the Most High wanting to exalt his throne above God's Throne. Man did NOT manufacture sin, he fell into it through the temptation to aquire the knowledge of good and evil when beforehand he knew only good and God. If God chose Lucifer to rebel then it wouldnt have been rebellion, it would have been obedience. Since Lucifer did rebel, God sent him to be imprisoned upon this earth and changed his name to satan. Since satan's time here on earth,he has tried to corrupt God's creation, only to find that when God offered man salvation that it actually punishes satan far more than anything else. One day, and very soon, God will melt all the elements with a fervent heat and the shout of the Archangel will go out with the voice of a trumpet and lall those who chose to obey the Gospel call will go out with that shout and say HALELUJAH!

raise: :Fish: raise:

Now, just try and stop me and them.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Thank you

Thanks for the book suggestion, I was thinking about getting that one. I have just got through reading The Holiness of God, and am now reading R.C.'s newer book, Gospel of God : Romans.

God Bless,
Andy

You're welcome. I just finished re-reading the chapter about double pre-destination where he deals with different views about double predestination and God's role in common grace. I highly recommend it.:thumbs:

Joseph Botwinick

 

[reformedbeliever]

Salamander. Could lucifer have chosen to not rebel? If so, then God is not all knowing huh? God would have had something to learn. I submit that in God's providence, He causes all things to happen for the good of those who love Him, those who are called according to His purpose.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Did he stop it? Could he have stopped it if he so wished?

Joseph Botwinick

You have a warped concept of God, young man. No wonder you always come across so angry, that is how you perceive God to be.

I Jn 4:16
16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.
(NIV)

 

[Rippon]

Terry , why do you think Joseph appears angry ? I don't sense that . Maybe you do not appreciate Joseph's biblical view of God .

 

[El_Guero]

If God wanted to, could he have stopped the holocaust before he did?

If you answered yes to the first question, then please explain to me why he didn't, and you will have the answer to your question.

Do you think that God could not stop the holocaust?

 

[El_Guero]

Andy

I think author's intent may be a little different - I felt that he was arguing against 'determinism'.

Determinism is not the same as predestination.

"controls" is the word the author used. If God controls you. If you have no choice. If you sin because God controls you, then you are approaching determinism.

IMHO, if the definition of predestination is control then we are approaching determinism.

determinism - philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs . . . or a philosophical theory holding that all events are inevitable consequences of antecedent sufficient causes; often understood as denying the possibility of free will

IMHO, If your definition of predestination is determinism then your theology is closer to a human philosophy than it is to the doctrine of predistination.

Predestination (Calvinistic predestination (*)) deals more with God ordaining your salvific event. This doctrine attributes evil to our nature or to satan. There are some times where all three might be involved (the death of Christ on the Cross - ordained by the father, satan manipulated judas, the Romans & the Jews chose to sin.)

Now I cannot gurantee that this author does not endorce determinism - but, I think that determinism is what he was addressing.

In Him,

Wayne

The belief that God controls everything that happens to us . . . he had come to believe that it was the Lord that caused all his problems.

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=31649471&blogID=91863814&MyToken=07cef1c8-0c78-43b2-9497-0d10dfae06ba

Ok, I do not usually like to do this, but after reading this article, I am concerned. This is a scary teaching this guy has, to simply say all good is of God and all bad is of Satan, seems blasphemous.

The reason why I am posting this, is what verses could I use to denounce this mans position? Believe it or not, this type of view on God's sovreignty is very popular in the 'seeker sensitive' churchs now days, it would be nice to know how to defend against this heresy.

God Bless,
Andy

(*) Calvin wrote the modern definition and made it popular, so I will stick to his definition.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Do you think that God could not stop the holocaust?

Yes. I certainly do think he could have stopped it. I am answering a question with another question.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

You have a warped concept of God, young man. No wonder you always come across so angry, that is how you perceive God to be.

I Jn 4:16
16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.
(NIV)

Terry,

I noticed that you didn't answer the question, but instead, resorted to a personal attack, and even worse, you used Scripture to carry through your personal attack. How sad.:tear:

Joseph Botwinick

 

[4His_glory]

To Terry and others who deny that God is sovereign in all things.

Did God ordain that Christ be murdered? Did God use this evil for His glory?

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Terry , why do you think Joseph appears angry ? I don't sense that . Maybe you do not appreciate Joseph's biblical view of God .

Well, you have only been here a short time; I have read his post for four years and this is my opinion. He seldom has anything good to say about anyone or any topic. He is also very quick to pronounce the severest judgment on anyone who disagrees with him. He is also very sarcastic in his approach toward other posters.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

To Terry and others who deny that God is sovereign in all things.

Did God ordain that Christ be murdered? Did God use this evil for His glory?

Jesus Christ was not murdered.

John 10:17-18
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life-- only to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
(NIV)

Yes, God uses evil for His glory, but that is a far cry from predestining that women are raped or that children are molested.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Terry,

If God had wanted to, could he have stopped the holocaust from happening?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Salamander]

To Terry and others who deny that God is sovereign in all things.

Did God ordain that Christ be murdered? Did God use this evil for His glory?

I haven't seen anyone in this discussion deny the Sovereignty of God in all things, it is just He is not the one who initiated all things.

Do you think God initiated that men would die in their sins and suffer for eternity in hell? Or would you rather believe the Bible when men with their refusal to repent and believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is what sends them to hell?

God works all things for good to them who love Him and are the called according to His purpose. No matter how evil a man's acts may be, God works them, even to the point of the death of His saints, for good to His saints.

This isn't a far stretch, but if you would take "setting our affections on things above and not on the things of the earth" into proper perspective, then one would see that no matter how evil this life may become, our eternal hope in glory is far better and works towards a better ressurrection.raying:

Evil does not originate from God.raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[Salamander]

Who took Job's camels?

Ok, who initiated the action to say, "Doth thy servant Job serve God for nought?" Then tell us what God told him?raying:

Did satan approach God or did God approach satan?

You "proof" just went POOF!

raise: :Fish: raise: