God's Sovreignty : This is Scary

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Karen,

You make a good point here and I understand why folks would be concerned about this. I would like to now relate to you and everyone here a story related by RC Sproul about an experience he had as a seminary professor which will promarily deal with the sovereignty of God, but will also touch briefly on the holiness of God as well. I know it will not be a full explanation of what is said as I would have to post the entire chapter to do that, and that would most certainly violate copyright. But I hope it will help with some understanding that we should not take away from God's sovereignty or his holiness (IOW, they are not mutually exclusive):

One of my duties as a seminary professor is to teach the theology of the Westminster Confession of Faith...

I began the class by reading the opening lines from Chapter III of the Westminster Confession:

God, from all eternity, did by the most wise and holy counsel of HIs own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.
I stopped reading at this point. I asked, "Is there anyone in this room who does not believe the words that I just read?" A Multitude of hands went up. I then asked, "Are there any convinced athiests in the room?" No hands were raised. I then said something outrageous: "Everyone who raised his hand to the first question should also have raised his hand to the second question."

A chorus of groans and protests met my statement. How could I accuse someone of atheism for not believing that God foreordains whatever comes to pass? Those who protested these words were not denying the existence of God. They were not protesting against Christianity. They were protesting against Calvinism.

I tried to explain to the class that the idea that God foreordains whatever comes to pass is not an idea unique to Calvinism. It isn't even unique to Christianity. It is simply a tenet of theism - a necessary tenet of theism.

That God in some sense foreordains whatever comes to pass is a necessary result of his sovereignty. In itself it does not plead for Calvinism. It only declares that God is absolutely sovereign over his creation. God can foreordain things in different ways. But everything that happens must at least happen by his permission. If he permits something, then he must decide to allow it. If he decides to allow something, then in a sense he is foreordaining it. Who, among Christians, would argue that God could not stop something in this world from happening? If God so desires, he has the power to stop the whole world.

To say that God foreordains all that comes to pass is simply to say that God is sovereign over his entire creation. If something could come to pass apart from his sovereign permission, then that which came to pass would frustrate his sovereignty. If God refused to permit something to happen and it happened anyway, then whatever caused it to happen would have more authority and power than God himself. If there is any part of creation outside of God's sovereignty, then God is simply not sovereign. If God is not soveriegn, the God is not God.

If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God's sovereignty, then we have no guarantee that a single promise of God will ever be fullfilled...

At this point I should do for you what I did for my students in the evening class - finish the statement from the Westminster Confession. The whole statement reads as follows:

God, from all eternity, did by the most wise and holy counsel of HIs own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Note that, while it affirms God's sovereignty over all things, the Confession also asserts that God does not do evil or violate human freedom. Human freedom and evil are under God's sovereignty.

Source: Chosen By God by RC Sproul, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1986, pp. 25-28.

God is sovereign and God is Holy. I would argue that they go hand in hand and are not at odds with each other. If God were not sovereign, then he could not be trusted to uphold all his promises and therefore, would not be Holy. I am sorry to have you read some one elses work to make the point, but I thought he expressed it better and more succinctly than I could have.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[El_Guero]

Was he teaching a bunch of liberals or what?

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Karen,

You make a good point here and I understand why folks would be concerned about this. I would like to now relate to you and everyone here a story related by RC Sproul about an experience he had as a seminary professor which will promarily deal with the sovereignty of God, but will also touch briefly on the holiness of God as well. I know it will not be a full explanation of what is said as I would have to post the entire chapter to do that, and that would most certainly violate copyright. But I hope it will help with some understanding that we should not take away from God's sovereignty or his holiness (IOW, they are not mutually exclusive):



Source: Chosen By God by RC Sproul, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1986, pp. 25-28.

God is sovereign and God is Holy. I would argue that they go hand in hand and are not at odds with each other. If God were not sovereign, then he could not be trusted to uphold all his promises and therefore, would not be Holy. I am sorry to have you read some one elses work to make the point, but I thought he expressed it better and more succinctly than I could have.

Joseph Botwinick

Thank you Joseph, Sproul explained this very effecively.:thumbs:

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

You're welcome Terry.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Karen]

Yes, thanks, Joseph.

 

[Salamander]

Your argument is illogical. If Satan could not have taken Job's life, then tell me why God would even bother mentioning it to Satan and adding that restriction. Also, please tell me who killed Job's kids.

Thanks,

Joseph Botwinick

Ok, simple. satan could kill anyone including Job, but God showed satan that he was not God.

I think your theology aligns the power of the principality of the air with God as if they are in allegiance; they are not.

If one did much "logical" study on the theory of the Yen and yang, one will see the likeness of that theory with your theology.raying:

I have never said God cannot control what satan starts, but the initial beginning of sin/ evil does not, nor did not come from God.

raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[Salamander]

This is exactly correct, but you will never convince Salamander because he doesn't believe in an omnipotent God.

Joseph Botwinick

You dont know what I believe to make that subjective statement.

I know that all good and perfect gifts come down from above and from the Father of Lights.

I know sin originated frrom lucifer, it is called pride.

You don't know that sin did,yet you think sin originated from God as you describe Omnipotence. Your theology is heretical.raying: