I'm certainly not a politically correct Christian and I'm not saying that Scripture isn't inspired.
I believe the whole thing is inspired, but we have to realize that the whole thing was written to a particular people at a particular time.
Paul was writing to particular people, not everyone else who was ever going to come.
That doesn't negate that it's inspired.
Not at all.
That doesn't mean I'm suggesting you pick and choose.
The Bible is still wildly relevant to us today and it's the final authority.
That's the end of the story.
And regarding that little saying of yours, that's long been used by people to separate themselves from others who don't agree.
You're basically telling me that I'm not a faithful Christian.
You're drawing a line in the sand and saying "you're just wrong, and you're a fraud or you're just one of those 'politically correct' Christians." It's pure arrogance.
We cannot make the Bible say something to us today that it didn't say at the time.
So if it was originally spoken to a particular people, then we have to do the work to determine what it says to us.
Paul was merely making an allusion meant to illustrate the issue for that particular place and time.
It's not meant to be a salient, overarching rule for all of time.
Well, yes, they've been widely discriminated against in the SBC.
And if they're not allowed to preach, it's discrimination.
We have to decide if it's necessary discrimination.
But I'm really talking about the whole existence of the Church, not just the short history of Baptists.
Check the Church Fathers.
Check Augustine.
Check Luther.
As much as I like those guys, they said horrible things about the very existence of women, which was reflective of the common view at the time.
We're completely kidding ourselves if we believe otherwise.
The Church and society has always given men the upper hand.
Thankfully, steps have been taken to change that over the past few years.
Folks that are equally conservative, equally believing in infallibility of scripture, equally devoted to Christ can fall out in two directions on this.
Some go to scripture to see if women can serve equally with men in the church as pastor.
When they read Paul say a woman cannot usurp authority over a man or teach a man and then read the appeal to creation, it seems to them that the answer is no.
Fair point.
Others read that same passage and ask those pesky who-what-when-where-why-how questions.
They realize that to usurp authority is NOT what politically correct translations appeasing tradition assume.
It is NOT "be in authority" but more "run up and grab authority out of the man's hand."
They realize that the "who" Paul spoke to were folks coming out of goddess worship, where it was taught THE MEN could not serve equally with women in the temple.
Where it was taught that women were created first.
Where only the women could teach "with authority."
So they understand that Paul is NOT answering the question "can a woman serve as pastor or teacher equally with men" but rather "can a man serve equally with women in those roles?"
They see that answered as of course he can.
Many of them do not see the pastor role as authority, but servanthood.
And they do not see it as "usurping" authority for a church to confer authority on a woman.
So for them, their stand for women's ordination is a stand FOR, not against the Bible.
But one thing is for sure--scripture tells us there will be things we will disagree on.
It tells us some will be vegetarians for Jesus and some will eat meat.
It tells us some will regard every day the same and others will keep holidays.
It challenges us to leave the judging up to God, for both on either side are serving Him the best they know how.
And it tells us to let each be fully convinced in their own mind and so live, for whatever is not of faith is sin.
So whichever side you fall out on, I support your decision to live accordingly, and trust you will give such grace to those that disagree with you.
Because BOTH sides believe "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it."
Yes, it has been provided.
The issue is in interpretation and application, not in letter.
Maybe I should have been more clear: the tenets of Christianity do not discriminate, nor does the Gospel of Christ.
I in no way want to imply otherwise.
Rather, the Church, those who have comprised it, have always discriminated against women.
Yes.
In a perfect world, this statement would be understood and that there would be graciousness and respect extended to those who feel convicted differently.
But it is simply meant to be pejorative most of the time.
So you don't believe God made man first and gave him headship over the home and spiritual things.
God placed on man the responsibilty for the home and spiritual things, God has never changed His mind.
Just because women have gained more and more rights and deservedly so the fact still remains Adam was formed first and given responsibilty for home and the spiritual needs of that family.
God the Holy Spirit through Paul commanded a woman not to usurp authority over a man nor to teach a man.
Saying it was for just that time is changing nature and changing Gods plan.
I disagree. The argument that Paul made was not cultural. As has been pointed out, Paul appealed to God's Word, God's creation and the fall as the reason God had appointed men to serve as Elders and why women cannot teach or have authority over men in the church. The passage is very clear.
The word "discrimination" carries a lot of baggage. It conjures images of injustice and violence. I don't think it is appropriate to compare the issue of women pastors with slavery and the civil rights movement.
The teaching of Jesus Christ, and the bible, have done more to elevate the position of women in the world than any other thing in history, imho.
Clearly, scripture teaches that women have equal standing before God, that they are of equal worth, that they are fellow laborers for the cause of Christ in the world.
Scripture also teaches that God has decreed male leadership within the church. That should not be ignored.
I am a big believer in Christian liberty. I believe Holy Spirit will convict true believers of error and bring them to a knowledge of the truth. I have, myself, experienced the same conviction and changed my mind on a number of issues including women as deacons (favor), the death penalty (against)... and there are several issues I'm still not sure about. Every time I have changed my mind it was based on the clear teaching of scripture.
On this issue, however, I am sure. Scripture is quite clear. The only way avoid obeying it is to dismiss it as culturally centered teaching, imho.
That kind of reasoning leads to all sorts of apostacy coming into the church, including h*mos*xual marriage/pastors who make the same kind of arugments to dismiss the passages concerning their issues. That is why these issues are often linked in those churches.
When we stand before God, it will not matter what position we held in the church. What will matter is our relationship to Him and if we were obedient to His commands... if we were faithful stewards of the gifts He gave to us.
Jesus prayed that those who follow Him would be sanctified (separated) by the truth. He said "your Word is truth". It is the Word of God that separates us from the world. We must be careful what we dismiss as no longer culturally relevant.