Hi Brother Sovereign,
I am sure it is inadvertent, but you actually never replied to any of my post #s 26, 28, and 29. When you have time, please reply to these posts, then I will reply to your latest post # 39. I do not want to reply to that post at this time as it will just result in you having four posts of mine to reply to, when I am sure 3 will already take a lot of time! Thanks.
God bless,
Brother Joe
Gospel regeneration
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by BrotherJoseph, Jun 30, 2015.
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
John Calvin gives a rather good commentary on Acts 8:16:
I had to saw this in half. It was too long. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Let me break this down to the 'brass tax' my beliefs on this subject. Our posts are getting quite lengthy. :laugh: A sinner hears the preaching of the gospel. Left in his fallen state, he does not and can not respond. God then quickens this sinner to life while the gospel is preached. These words now come to life because God has quickened him and these words are now Spirit and life. This is how I see it.
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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You see that folks, we dont believe the same after all, but i already knew that, and stated that !
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If he had already heard all elements of the gospel, it was pointless for God to send Peter to "seal the deal" if Peter did not tell him anything he did not already know.
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify..." (Acts 10:40-42)
Brother Joe -
Thanks for your additional replies to my points.
Laying Cornelius aside as we already discussed him, both Lydia and Apollos if they only knew of the baptism of John had not heard the gospel. If one searches the word "gospel" in the Bible is not mentioned in relation to John the Baptist. Also, as we have already both previously agreed, an important part of the gospel is the declaration of Christ's resurrection. This was not included in John's message, thus both Lydia and Apollos had never heard the gospel, but were already regenerated prior to hearing.
Brother Joe -
Brother Joe -
bj
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. -
No, I do not believe in eternal justification, but some Primitive Baptists do.
The elect were chosen in Christ before the world was fashioned. They had a vital union with Him as His seed. Even so it follows that they, the elect, could not have been eternally justified; it was a timely justification. Why were the elect justified in time and not eternity? Simply, the elect stood in no need of justification until they fell under the penalties of the law. Did that fall occur in eternity or in time? Of course the whole family of Adam fell in the garden, in time, not in eternity. Being in Christ, before there was a world, the chosen children were as pure as He was pure. It was the fall, in time, that plunged the chosen into a condition that required justification. Mark well, the elect stood in no need of justification until they fell in Adam. The law had no jurisdiction over the elect prior to Adam's fall. Justice had put in no claim against them. God the Judge was well pleased with them in His Son. Justification had no application for the unfallen elect.
"Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification" (Romans 4.23-25).
God bless,
Brother Joe -
bj
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
That Grace given to the Elect in Christ Jesus before the World began, Justified them Titus 3:7
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. -
bj
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You do not seek Godly discussions, just to parlay your thoughts and disparage those who disagree with you. Good day sir. -
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Brother Joseph,
I will post this and then I am done in this thread. It is apparent that there is one who is hindering this thread.
Faith, when given, is exercised. Now, if God regenerates someone outside the gospel, without knowing Jesus existed at the time they were regenerated, how can they use that to believe?
Paul stated plainly How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?[Rom. 10:14]
And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? Belief is faith. When God quickens, He also gives faith and repentance. If Abu in deepest, darkest Africa has never heard about Christ, if God quickens him, what does he exercise his faith(given by God,so now it would be his faith) and repentance on? He can not have faith in Him who he has not heard. He can not exercise repentance if he does not know Christ. This is where the gospel is of utmost importance in the conversion of sinners. Yes God regenerates, but when He does, they have to have Someone to repent to and have faith in.
Faith and repentance are never dormant, never idle.
This is why I am pro-gospel regeneration.
I have truly enjoyed our discusion. Good day mon ami. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Brother Joseph,
I pray I have not offended you in any of my postings. -
NO offense! I too have enjoyed our discussion. I will leave you with two verses two consider along with a couple of thoughts.
"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47)
This verse states those who hear God's words are already "of God", not that they, "become of God" after or through hearing the words.
One last verse that is similar in nature to the previous, "We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." (1 John 4:6)
Again, this verse says the one that "heareth" the word of God already "knoweth God".
Brother Joe -
You bring up some points. I must confess I have never studied the doctrine of eternal justification, though I have heard of it and am aware some such as John Gill wrote on it. I found a site online that has both pro and con articles on the doctrine. I like to study both sides of a position from scripture before taking a possible dogmatic side on an issue. I will study further. In case your interested, the site is here http://www.theopedia.com/Eternal_justification Some of the external links to the pro and con articles on the site do not work, but I have found if you Google the title and author's names it often pulls them up.
Don Fortner had some good points that are compelling in support of eternal justification that I just read tonight.
I pasted the meat of it below. The article I quote from below is here http://www.donfortner.com/sermon_notes/45_romans/rom%2003v24%20Four%20Facts%20About%20Justification%200533.htm
"A. In the mind and purpose of God, Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8; Isa. 53).
Because God our Father looked upon Christ as one already sacrificed for us before the world was, all the blessings of grace were given to us in him (Eph. 1:3-7; 2 Tim. 1:9).
· Election
· Adoption
· Acceptance
· Redemption
· Forgiveness
· Justification
Thomas Goodwin wrote - “We may say of all spiritual blessings in Christ what is said of Christ himself, that ‘his goings forth are from everlasting.’ In Christ we are blessed with all spiritual blessings (Eph. 1:3). As we are blessed with all others, so with this also, that we were justified then in Christ.”
B. There are two facts which compel us to look upon justification as an eternal act of God.
1. Had it not been for the fact that God looked upon his elect as being righteous and justified in Christ from eternity, he would have destroyed our race as soon as Adam sinned. God spares the wicked for the sake of the righteous. (Illustration: Lot and the men of Sodom.)
2. The Old Testament saints were justified by Christ, just as we are today. And their justification was just as full, complete, and perfect as ours (Heb. 9:15, 22; Rom. 3:25). Every true believer is eternally justified in the purpose of God."
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