Government-enforced morality

[genesis12]

Once again we see how futile these polls (and most posts in these forums) are. We rip apart the question, the post, rather than simply responding to it. Please, someone! Come up with a perfect poll, a perfect post, 10 times in a row, so that we may all agree 100% of the time! It's really getting frustrating in here!

 

[StefanM]

genesis12,

Welcome to Baptist life!

 

[Marcia]

Once again we see how futile these polls (and most posts in these forums) are. We rip apart the question, the post, rather than simply responding to it. Please, someone! Come up with a perfect poll, a perfect post, 10 times in a row, so that we may all agree 100% of the time! It's really getting frustrating in here!

Agree 100% of the time??

That's not the point of a debate forum! :laugh:

There's always the fellowship forums if you want agreement. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Alcott]

Putting the person in prison is not revenge, it's the consequence for the person's crimes.

Nothing but phrasing the same thing differenetly. It is revenge. If not, why are the victims, or surivors, so much more intent than the general populace to see crminals thrown in the slammer?

 

[The Galatian]

It is human to desire revenge. But much that is human is evil. It's not justification.

 

[Daisy]

Once again we see how futile these polls (and most posts in these forums) are. We rip apart the question, the post, rather than simply responding to it. Please, someone! Come up with a perfect poll, a perfect post, 10 times in a row, so that we may all agree 100% of the time! It's really getting frustrating in here!

Why would you want a poll in the Debate section to be 100% agreed upon? If there is no contraversy, there is no debate, no discussion.

 

[El_Guero]

IMHO

Revenge is hunting you down like a dog and breaking bones, because you hurt my feelings.

Justice is appropriate punishment for the crime. If you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime.

 

[Daisy]

Nothing but phrasing the same thing differenetly. It is revenge. If not, why are the victims, or surivors, so much more intent than the general populace to see crminals thrown in the slammer?

It is not "eye for an eye" revenge; it's money for your eye.

Nothing but phrasing the same thing differenetly. It is revenge. If not, why are the victims, or surivors, so much more intent than the general populace to see crminals thrown in the slammer?

That's not necessarily so - some victims and survivors are vengeful, some are not.

 

[El_Guero]

PS - I also think that ex-criminals and their team members (lawyers, sympathizers, family, etc.) should all live together as one big happy family. Then you would have all the forgiveness and support to make a clean start that anyone could stand.

 

[Alcott]

It is not "eye for an eye" revenge; it's money for your eye.
quote]

It's revenge either way... "payback time"; "you owe me"; "you'll pay for this." I don't think we have any greater sense of justice today, we just use that word to cover that we think in the same vengeful airs. And the real reason we are gald to accept a big pot of money instead of gouging out an eye is because we can't buy a new house or a couplle of Lincolns or a month in Europe with a bloody eye.

 

[Daisy]

It's revenge either way... "payback time"; "you owe me"; "you'll pay for this."

Compensation is not revenge.

I don't think we have any greater sense of justice today, we just use that word to cover that we think in the same vengeful airs.

When the poor & obscure get the same treatment that the rich and powerful get, then we can be said to have a greater sense of justice.

And the real reason we are gald to accept a big pot of money instead of gouging out an eye is because we can't buy a new house or a couplle of Lincolns or a month in Europe with a bloody eye.

Some would prefer revenge; some would like both.

 

[Alcott]

Compensation is not revenge.

Revenge Synonyms: reprisal, requital, retaliation, retribution, vengeance, counter, counterattack, counteroffensive; castigation, chastisement, correction; desert(s), discipline, nemesis, penalty, punishment, wrath; amends, compensation,indemnification, indemnity, quittance, recompense, recoupment, redress, remuneration, reparation(s), restitution [Merriam-Webster Online Thesaurus]

 

[Marcia]

Nothing but phrasing the same thing differenetly. It is revenge. If not, why are the victims, or surivors, so much more intent than the general populace to see crminals thrown in the slammer?

But they don't get to decide what the penalty is, especially in criminal cases. So no matter what the victims want, it has to go through the courts. And for civil cases, that can take years and years.

I agree many victims want revenge, but I do not agree that is what the courts are for. The courts reflect in a very remote and fallen way the justice of God. We would not even have a sense of justice if we were not made in the image of a just God.

 

[Daisy]

Revenge Synonyms: reprisal, requital, retaliation, retribution, vengeance, counter, counterattack, counteroffensive; castigation, chastisement, correction; desert(s), discipline, nemesis, penalty, punishment, wrath; amends, compensation,indemnification, indemnity, quittance, recompense, recoupment, redress, remuneration, reparation(s), restitution [Merriam-Webster Online Thesaurus]

Even so, there's a difference - revenge is about hurting or punishing the other while compensation is about being made whole (as possible). One is about the perpetrator, the other is about the victim.

 

[Alcott]

Even so, there's a difference - revenge is about hurting or punishing the other while compensation is about being made whole (as possible). One is about the perpetrator, the other is about the victim.

If there is a difference, they are both still about the perpetrator and the victim. Revenge can be in the form of money or a pound of flesh or a dangling body swinging from a noose.

 

[Marcia]

If there is a difference, they are both still about the perpetrator and the victim. Revenge can be in the form of money or a pound of flesh or a dangling body swinging from a noose.

Have you ever read a trial transcript or watched a court proceeding? It's not about revenge at all. It's about consequences and punishments as defined by the law. These are decided by the law and through the law. If you are robbed, the just consequence would be for the person to be caught and tried or for him to plead guilty and get a sentence (or maybe not, maybe probation). If you went after the robber and beat him up or shot him, that would be revenge.

Where do you think we get our concept of justice from? We get it from God, who is perfectly just. We are not, of course, but wanting justice is not wanting revenge.

 

[Alcott]

If we want somebody's money because they wronged us, then we want them to pay for what they did. That's revenge.

Furthermore, if we "get it from God," we find in scripture that God is a god of revenge-- revenge is "his," it says. And in Revelation 18 we read, "Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her (v.6).

I don't intend to let this particular subtopic go much further before getting back to the direction I meant for this thread/poll to take in the first place.

 

[Daisy]

If we want somebody's money because they wronged us, then we want them to pay for what they did. That's revenge.

If someone wrecks my car, I want it to be fixed or replaced - compensation. I don't mind if the insurance pays for it. I do not want, necessarily, for that person's car to be wrecked - eye for an eye revenge.

 

[Marcia]

If we want somebody's money because they wronged us, then we want them to pay for what they did. That's revenge.

Furthermore, if we "get it from God," we find in scripture that God is a god of revenge-- revenge is "his," it says. And in Revelation 18 we read, "Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her (v.6).

But God himself gives the consequences (including many compensations) in the OT for Israel to follow. Many of our laws today are based on these (including murder and manslaugther laws, though they vary from state to state).

 

[Alcott]

If someone wrecks my car, I want it to be fixed or replaced - compensation. I don't mind if the insurance pays for it. I do not want, necessarily, for that person's car to be wrecked - eye for an eye revenge.

Why do you include the word "necessarily?" Anyway, you want the offender to pay for it, no matter what means he/she has to pay for it, while not necessarily wanting his/her car also to be wrecked. This type of revenge has become the more common type because the avenger gets something useful or valuable from the avengee, instead of a bloody eyeball to bounce around. Regardless, you have admitted you want equal to or greater than the value of your loss-- it's payback time!

Incidentally, if someone attacked you and plunged a sharp instrument into your eye, causing you to lose sight in that eye, and you defended yourself by taking away that sharp instrument and stabbing the attacker, who died [though you did not intend that], would you ask for a transplant of that person's eyeball-- a medically possible operation now-- in order to have the sight that was cost by the same person? It certainly seems as reasonable as wanting 'compensation' for your wrecked car.