I am aware this has been discussed before, but it seems that there are very few who have actually done a study to determine what grace really is. So with that in mind, I would like the Calvinists to define for all of us exactly what grace is and what grace does. Here's some starter questions
Grace:
Is it Transferable......Yes?.....NO?
Is Given as a gift from one being to another....Yes?....NO?
Is Selectively applied by God.....Yes?....NO?
Comes in many flavors.....Yes?.....NO?
Has the power to save a man's soul....Yes....No?
Provides strength to humans in times of trial....Yes?.....No?
Is a Behavioral Attribute....Yes?....No?
Is found in Salvation.....Yes?.....No?
Is the source of Salvation....Yes?....No?
Allows Faith to come through hearing the Word of God....Yes?....No?
What say you?
Grace, Calvin vs all others
Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Yelsew2, Mar 3, 2004.
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Why not read what Calvin wrote? Maybe that would help you understand what he said and what he believed.
Bro. Dallas -
Can't answer simple yes or no questions?
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No. Because if one does it will be construed to mean something it does not.
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Yes I can, but no I can't. I know very little about what Calvin believed.
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Grace:
Is it Transferable......Yes?.....NO?-yes, God gives grace or transfers it.
Is Given as a gift from one being to another....Yes?....NO? Yes, again God does give grace to depraved men.
Is Selectively applied by God.....Yes?....NO?-God gives grace to whom He will. Who is that? To whomever He wills. He is not forced to do anything. He will do what He says He will. But He will do whatever His will is.
Comes in many flavors.....Yes?.....NO? The Bible talks about manifold grace, maybe that is your flavors, maybe not. But there are measures of grace, yes.
Has the power to save a man's soul....Yes....No?
Yes, according to Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved, through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Provides strength to humans in times of trial....Yes?.....No?
Yes, I believe God gives grace to some when He so desires. An example, maybe dying grace, for a saint dying.
Is a Behavioral Attribute....Yes?....No?
I think that God's grace could be called a attribute or characteristic of God, Because when I think of Him I think of His grace as I do His love or holiness. Not saying these are all the same. Just they seem to be characteristic of God. He is a holy, loving, and gracious God.
Is found in Salvation.....Yes?.....No?
No, I guess it's not found in salvation, but salvation is a result of it. If God had not grace on us we could not be saved.
Is the source of Salvation....Yes?....No?
Salvation is of the Lord. And God's grace is of the Lord.
Allows Faith to come through hearing the Word of God....Yes?....No? Yes, without the grace of God a sinner could not hear the Word of God and if he heard it, he could not believe it. Because salvation is of the Lord.
What say you? I say grace is the unmerited favor of God. His lovingkindness toward man. Something we do not merit. But is freely given by God. Thank God for His grace. Also, these are my views and I claim only to speak for myself and not for all calvinists or all anything, just for me. Reason being is there are probably many that understand it differently. So I cant speak for them.
Oh yeah, I am not an expert on Calvin either, or grace for that matter, but these are my answers to your questions as far as I understand them. -
Thanks cdg,
Please understand that I am not criticizing you, just the understanding of what Grace is and what Grace does.
Even so what you did say is that Grace is a characteristic of God. How is it that one can give away that which is characteristic of one's self? This contradicts your answers to the questions above. One cannot give what is characteristic of one's self to another! So God's Grace is not a transferable commodity! It is not something that God can give, but rather, is the manner in which God behaves toward those whom he chooses to favor!
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Yelsew,
Thanks for not criticizing. I will not try to reply to all of your reply but only parts.
God does give grace, but we can not give His grace. Because God can do something, it does not follow we can do something. Ex.He created the universe, but we cannot.
I think "Grace received is graced perceived" is incorrect, because people receive of the grace of God everyday and think nothing of it. There are times when God helps me and we do not know it, but we receive of His grace. There are those who receive of the grace of God and attribute it to a false god. So men do receive of the grace of God and do not perceive it. There those who are given life every day and think nothing of God. The only time they use His name is in vain.
I must disagree with your saying I am misinterpreting Scripture by using Ephesians 2:8. It might be true if the Scripture was hard to read or vague but it i spelled out in Ephesians 2:8.
I do think it(grace) is a attribute of God. But the behavioral part is a little confusing. But the Bible says God grants(gives) grace, so how can one say otherwise.
Well, a lost person does not believe or trust in the Word of God till God gives Him faith to do so. -
cdg
In case you don't know the definitions of Grace and FAITH, I'll post them for you.
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Yelsew,
Again, you can say anything you like about "Grace being a characteristic and therefore not transferable" ,but Scripture(our authority" is clear on the matter. God does give grace. Also, you may believe what you want about "God giving faith" but Scripture is clear.
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God and the Word of God from God. Seems as though we are getting into the same old discussion. And you are still disregarding Scripture for logic.
I made the connection, because there are things God can do that we cannot. He gives grace, we cannot, He created the universe, we cannot do the same. You were using for your argument "If God gives grace, why dont you give me some?" I am saying God can give grace but we cannot.
You were also implying before "if God gives faith why dont you give me some?"(possibly not your exact same words but same idea). I was saying then also God can give faith but we cannot.
Thanks for the definitions but I already knew the definitions of grace and faith. -
If you know the definitions then why do you not use the terms correctly and in accordance with the definition?
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I am sorry Yelsew, if I have not used them correctly and in accordance with the defintion. My goal has been to use them in accordance with Scripture.
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I am not sure Yelsew. In fact, I am not sure where you say I made the mistake. Please show me where I used the words grace and faith contrary to their defintions. Thank you.
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Faith is not a work! There is no energy expended in faith.
Neither Grace nor FAITH can be given from one being to another in a "transfer of ownership" transaction.
Also God has no faith to give according to the definition of faith. -
OK, now, I understand what you are saying. I wasnt wrong in my use of grace or faith, at least, not unless the Bible is wrong. I used them in the context of the verses I have given you in the past. We have gotten into the same old argument as we debated before. As I did then, so I suggest now, that we end this conversation. Since we both know the views of the other, and since we neither have changed.
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So, instead of recognizing the problem, you choose to ignore the truth and continue with false doctrine.