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Featured Grace Plus Law.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by 37818, Oct 30, 2019.

  1. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    No it's not. This “SABBATISMOS” rest found in Hebrews 4:9 is the believers perpetual, spiritual rest found in Christ in contrast to the keeping the weekly sabbath under the Mosaic law. Notice that the Greek word "sabbatismos" is used no where else in the Bible! It's amazing that SDA's would suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath under the law" when it is never used anywhere else!

    W.E. Vine, Greek Dictionary on "Rest" proves the SDA argument wrong:

    A2. KATAPAUSIS (2663), in classical Greek, denotes a causing to cease or putting to rest; in the N.T., rest, repose; it is used (a) of God's rest, Acts 7:49; Heb. 3:11, 18; 4:1, 3 (twice), R.V. (1st part), "that rest" (the A.V., "rest," is ambiguous), 5, 11; (b) in a general statement, applicable to God and man, 4:10.

    A4. SABBATISMOS (4520), a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law.
     
  2. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    No, it was fully allowed by the law of Moses and not transgression at any point, thus Jesus said that the disciples were in fact, "guiltless". It is amazing that you take the Pharisees side, in their vain tradition, in the argument by saying it was transgression.

    Deuteronomy 23:25 KJB - When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand; but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour's standing corn.
     
  3. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    So why is the Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the Ten Commandments, never found in the book of Genesis? Why is no one before Moses ever being told to keep the Sabbath? Why are there no examples of anyone keeping the Sabbath before Moses? Why were the Patriarchs never instructed about the Sabbath, but were instructed regarding: offerings: Genesis 4:3-4, Altars Genesis 8:20, Priests: Genesis 14:18, Tithes: Genesis 14:20, Circumcision: Genesis 17:10, Marriage: Genesis 2:24 and Genesis 34:9. Why would God leave out the Sabbath command in Genesis if it was for everyone to keep before Moses?

    Although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future Sabbath law, there is no Biblical record of the Sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that Sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.

    The word "Sabbath" first appears in Exodus 16:23 - Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.

    The Word of God makes it quite clear that Sabbath keeping was a sign between God and Israel:“The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested” (Exodus 31:16-17). Are you an Israelite under the law?

    In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the Ten Commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 12–14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: “Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day” (Deuteronomy 5:15).

    *Nowhere under the new covenant is the Church commanded to keep the weekly Sabbath day and to the contrary we find -- (Colossians 2:16-17) :)
     
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  4. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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  5. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    You cite Vine, and I'll cite a source closer to home, though not scripture, just as your source isn't scripture:

    ... in the further extant Greek literature, always, in every single case, means the keeping of the Sabbath Day:

    Plutarch, De Superstitione 3 (Moralia 166A)

    Justin, Dialogue with Trypho 23:3

    Epiphanius, Adversus Haereses 30:2:2

    Martyrium Petri et Pauli 1

    Apostolic Constitutions 2:36:2


    Feel free to keep reading:

    Hebrews 3-4 [KJB], the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD JEHOVAH - "my rest" "remaineth" to My people.
     
  6. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    No, Moses gave the additional reason, not a replacement reason, read the verses:

    Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

    See Exodus 20:8-11,for the part about "as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee".

    Deuteronomy 5 is not taking away anything, but simply adding to that which is already given, Creation (Exodus) and Re-Creation/Redemption (Deuteronomy).
     
  7. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    You can quote whatever you want but you will NEVER convince me otherwise. You are not fooling me or my brothers and sisters in Christ on the Baptistboard. The SDA church is a CULT that preaches a false gospel. Period.
     
  8. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    You never do address this:

    Colossians 2 KJB (citing Ezekiel 45:17 KJB), parallels Ephesians 2 KJB, and Hebrews 9-10 KJB. The language is the same. The "ordinances" in Colossians 2 deals with "shadows", such as the daily "meat and drink" offerings of a worldly sanctuary and carnal ordinances, the seasonal "feast days", the monthly "new moons", and the year based "sabbaths", in the singular, every 7 and 50th years, as Paul is citing Psalms 98:1-3; and Ezekiel 45:17 KJB with other texts.

    The Sabbath of the LORD thy God is always called "my [as in God's] sabbaths", and the others in Leviticus 23:4 onward are called "your [the peoples] sabbaths" [Leviticus 26:35 KJB] which are "beside [given in addition to] the sabbaths of the LORD" [Leviticus 23:38 KJB]. The Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, are "light" [Proverbs 6:23, Isaiah 8:20, 51:4 KJB], never a "shadow", are "spiritual" [Romans 7:14 KJB], never "carnal" [Hebrews 9:10 KJB].

    Colossians 2:14 - "ordinances"
    Ephesians 2:15 - "law of commandments contained in ordinances"
    Hebrews 9:1 - "ordinances of divine service"
    Hebrews 9:10 - "carnal ordinances"

    Colossians 2:16 - "in meat, or in drink" [offerings]
    Hebrews 9:10 - "meats and drinks" [offerings]

    Colossians 2:12 - "also ye are risen with him"
    Ephesians 2:6 - "raised us up together"

    Colossians 2:16 - "a shadow of things to come"
    Ephesians 2:7 - "in the ages to come"
    Hebrews 9:11 - "of good things to come"
    Hebrews 10:1 - "the law having a shadow of good things to come", "those sacrifices", "offered year by year"

    [ps. none of the Ten Commandments deal with carnal sacrifices]

    it speaks of plural, "sabbath days" (or 'of sabbaths'). The context, is also not concerned with all 'sabbaths' but is limited in scope, to that which is "shadow" (not light, not body or substance), that which is "of things to come" (type pointing to the future events) and of "ordinances", as follows.

    [1] The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, of Creation (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11), was given to mankind (Adam) before the sin of mankind (Mark 2:27), before the need of shadow and type, which were given after the sin of mankind, under the Levitical priesthood.

    [2] The Sabbath of the LORD the God, is a memorial (pointing backwards, thu the words "Remember" (Exodus 20:8)), to a perfect world without sin, perfect relationship, perfect rest), and is not pointing to the future.

    [3] The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, is singular and specific. "The seventh day" "the sabbath" "of the LORD thy God".

    Exodus 20:8 KJB - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    Exodus 20:9 KJB - Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    Exodus 20:10 KJB - But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    Exodus 20:11 KJB - For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    Exodus 20:8 HOT - זכור את־יום השׁבת לקדשׁו׃
    Exodus 20:9 HOT - שׁשׁת ימים תעבד ועשׂית כל־מלאכתך׃
    Exodus 20:10 HOT - ויום השׁביעי שׁבת ליהוה אלהיך לא־תעשׂה כל־מלאכה אתה ובנך־ובתך עבדך ואמתך ובהמתך וגרך אשׁר בשׁעריך׃
    Exodus 20:11 HOT - כי שׁשׁת־ימים עשׂה יהוה את־השׁמים ואת־הארץ את־הים ואת־כל־אשׁר־בם וינח ביום השׁביעי על־כן ברך יהוה את־יום השׁבת ויקדשׁהו׃

    Exodus 20:8 HOT Translit. - zäkhôr et-yôm haSHaBät l'qaD'shô
    Exodus 20:9 HOT Translit. - shëshet yämiym Taávod w'äsiytä Käl-m'lakh'Tekhä
    Exodus20:10 HOT Translit. -w'yôm haSH'viyiy shaBät layhwäh éloheykhä lo-taáseh khäl-m'läkhäh aTäh ûvin'khä-ûviTekhä av'D'khä waámät'khä ûv'hem'Tekhä w'gër'khä ásher Bish'äreykhä
    Exodus 20:11 HOT Translit. - Kiy shëshet-yämiym äsäh y'hwäh et-haSHämayim w'et-hääretz et-haYäm w'et-Käl-ásher-Bäm waYänach BaYôm haSH'viyiy al-Kën Bërakh' y'hwäh et-yôm haSHaBät way'qaD'shëhû š

    [4] The Sabbath of the LORD is separate from the yearly festal sabbaths, as denoted in Leviticus 23 (see Leviticus 23:3; then see Leviticus 23:4,38 "beside the sabbaths of the LORD")

    [5] The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, is called "the sabbath of the LORD" (Exodus 20:8-11, etc), and "My sabbaths" (Isaiah 56:4; Ezekiel 20:20), as opposed to theirs, called "your sabbaths" (Leviticus 26:34,35), and "her sabbaths" (Leviticus 26:34,43; 2 Chronicles 26:31; Lamentations 1:7; Hosea 2:11), etc.

    [6] Colossians 2, in its entire context says nothing about "the seventh day", but speaks of merely the shadow sabbaths (plural, not singular), and says nothing of "commandment" (as Luke 23:54,56 does), but speaks of worldly "ordinances" (Colossians 2:14,20).

    [7] Colossians 2, speaks of "sins" (Colossian 2:13), which is "transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4), of which the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) is central, whereas the yearly (and of years) sabbaths are not given in the Ten Commandments at all

    More can be said, but 7 was a good number to round it off at this point, more in detail in a bit.

    Paul was citing Ezekiel 45:17:

    Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

    Read Ezekiel 45 in all of its context,

    Eze_45:14 Concerning the ordinance of oil, the bath of oil, ye shall offer the tenth part of a bath out of the cor, which is an homer of ten baths; for ten baths are an homer:

    etc.

    Paul's use of Ezekiel 45:17 is in both places contextual to "ordinances", and "shadow", and elsewhere "carnal" and "worldly" (Ephesians 2 and Hebrews 9-10).

    Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

    Therefore, it is not all "sabbaths". It is limited to Paul's citation, and use.
     
  9. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Act_6:10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.

    As being so, you are reduced to epithets.
     
  10. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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  11. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    So you are comparing yourself to Stephen, who truly was a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit and God’s grace and power.. (Acts 6:3-8) and are convinced that believers are unable to resist your wisdom? Talk about arrogance. :Rolleyes
     
  12. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    #72 mailmandan, Oct 31, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
  13. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    You hit the nail on the head! :Thumbsup
     
  14. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    I would not even know where to begin to straighten out your long winded train wreck of scripture twisting and SDA propaganda here, but it really would not matter if I did because you don't have ears to hear anyway. Colossians 2:16 does not exclude the weekly sabbath. The words "ton sabbaton" or "sabbath days"; are the same words translated "Sabbath day" in Exodus 20:8 in the Septuagint. We see Paul's reasoning, "Let no one judge you regarding a, festival - yearly Sabbaths, a new moon - monthly Sabbaths, or a Sabbath day - weekly Sabbaths (or Sabbath days)" CHRIST, he goes on to say is the "substance", these things were shadows.

    When this passage is compared with Galatians 4:9 we can see that a connection in Paul's teaching is revealed: "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years." In verse 10, we read - "you observe..,"

    days (weekly Sabbaths, corresponding to "Sabbath days in Colossians 2)
    months (new moons, corresponding to "a new moon" in Colossians 2)
    seasons (the 7 feasts, corresponding to "festivals" in Colossians 2)
    and years (the sabbatical year and the 50th year of Jubilee)

    Paul is clearing speaking about the observances of all Jewish holy days, including the weekly Sabbath. When God refers to the whole system of Jewish holy days, rather than naming them all, He would refer to the yearly, monthly and weekly as representing the whole system and yearly Sabbaths were already referred to in Colossians 2:16 as "festivals". The "Year, Month, Week" pattern is well established in the Old Testament and Colossians 2:16 does not exclude the weekly Sabbath.

    Yearly, monthly, weekly pattern proves it is the weekly Sabbath

    1 Chronicles 23:31 - Yearly (fixed festivals), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

    2 Chronicles 2:4 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

    2 Chronicles 8:13 - Yearly (annual feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

    2 Chronicles 31:3 - Yearly (fixed festivals), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

    Nehemiah 10:33 - Yearly (appointed times), monthly (new moon), weekly (Sabbaths)

    Isaiah 1:13-14 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moon), weekly (Sabbath)

    Ezekiel 45:17 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

    Ezekiel 46:1-11 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbath)

    Hosea 2:11 - Yearly (festal assemblies), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

    Galatians 4:10 - years, months, days

    Colossians 2:16 - festival, new moon, Sabbath day
     
  15. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    False and just face the fact that your perverted sabbath keeping gospel is not going to save you. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
     
  16. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    That was very well explained my friend, keep up the good work. Once one looks behind the curtain, the truth shines forth!
     
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  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Where is the Sabbath first revealed in the word of God? Answer Genesis. And in what language was this first revelation to? The Hebrews.
    ". . . And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. . . ." -- Exodus 31:12-13.
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "mailmandan,

    Hello MMD,

    We disagree here at this time.

    No. You are seeing the contrast, but I think the wrong contrast.....
    He is contrasting the weekly keeping of one day in seven...the NT. Lord's day...with the eternal rest we fully enter in to at glorification
    , NOT THE MOSAIC SABBATH.

    Absolutely correct. That is in order to make it abundantly clear. There remains the keeping of a one day in seven rest. It is ...THE Lords day. Dan, what else does that term the Lord's day mean???





    It's amazing that SDA's would suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath under the law" when it is never used anywhere else!

    Sabbath Rest by Sinclair Ferguson

    The anonymous author of Hebrews found different ways of describing the superiority of the Lord Jesus Christ. One of them, which forms the underlying motif of chapters 3 and 4, is that Jesus Christ gives the rest that neither Moses nor Joshua could provide. Under Moses, the people of God were disobedient and failed to enter into God’s rest (3:18). Psalm 95:11 (quoted in Hebrews 4:3) implies that Joshua could not have given the people “real rest” since “through David” God speaks about the rest he will give on another day (Heb. 4:7). This in turn implies that “There remains a sabbath rest for the people of God” (Heb. 4:9).

    In speaking of this rest (3:18; 4:1, 3-6, 8) the author consistently used the same word for “rest” (katapausis). Suddenly, in speaking about the “rest” that remains for the people of God, he uses a different word (sabbatismos, used only here in the NT) meaning specifically a Sabbath rest. In the context of his teaching, this refers fundamentally to the “Sabbath rest” which is found in Christ (“Come … I will give you rest,” Matt. 11:28-30). Thus we are to “strive to enter that rest” (4:11).

    Since Augustine, Christians have recognized that the Bible describes human experience in a fourfold scheme: in(i) creation, (ii) fall, (iii) redemption and (iv) glory. We are familiar with echoes of this in the Westminster Confession of Faith (chapter 9) and in Thomas Boston’s great book Human Nature in its Fourfold State. It is no surprise then that the Sabbath, which was made for man, is experienced by him in four ways.

    In creation, man was made as God’s image—intended “naturally” as God’s child to reflect his Father. Since his Father worked creatively for six days and rested on the seventh, Adam, like a son, was to copy Him. Together, on the seventh day, they were to walk in the garden. That day was a time to listen to all the Father had to show and tell about the wonders of His creating work.

    Thus the Sabbath Day was meant to be “Father’s Day” every week. It was “made” for Adam. It also had a hint of the future in it. The Father had finished His work, but Adam had not.

    But Adam fell. He ruined everything, including the Sabbath. Instead of walking with God, he hid from God (Gen. 3:8). It was the Sabbath, Father’s Day, but God had to look for him!

    This new context helps us to understand the significance of the fourth commandment. It was given to fallen man—that is why it contains a “you shall not.” He was not to work, but to rest. Externally, that meant ceasing from his ordinary tasks in order to meet with God. Internally, it involved ceasing from all self-sufficiency in order to rest in God’s grace.

    Considering this, what difference did the coming of Jesus make to the Sabbath day? In Christ crucified and risen, we find eternal rest (Matt. 11:28-30), and we are restored to communion with God (Matt. 11:25-30). The lost treasures of the Sabbath are restored. We rest in Christ from our labor of self-sufficiency, and we have access to the Father (Eph. 2:18). As we meet with Him, He shows us Himself, His ways, His world, His purposes, His glory. And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week&mdash the Lord’s Day.

    But we have not yet reached the goal. We still struggle to rest from our labors; we still must “strive to enter that rest” (Heb. 4:11). Consequently the weekly nature of the Sabbath continues as a reminder that we are not yet home with the Father. And since this rest is ours only through union with Christ in His death and resurrection, our struggles to refuse the old life and enjoy the new continue.

    But one may ask: “How does this impact my Sundays as a Christian?” This view of the Sabbath should help us regulate our weeks. Sunday is “Father’s Day,” and we have an appointment to meet Him. The child who asks “How short can the meeting be?” has a dysfunctional relationship problem—not an intellectual, theological problem—something is amiss in his fellowship with God.

    This view of the Sabbath helps us deal with the question “Is it ok to do … on Sunday?—because I don’t have any time to do it in the rest of the week?” If this is our question, the problem is not how we use Sunday, it is how we are misusing the rest of the week.

    This view of the Lord’s Day helps us see the day as a foretaste of heaven. And it teaches us that if the worship, fellowship, ministry, and outreach of our churches do not give expression to that then something is seriously amiss.

    Hebrews teaches us that eternal glory is a Sabbath rest. Every day, all day, will be “Father’s Day!” Thus if here and now we learn the pleasures of a God-given weekly rhythm, it will no longer seem strange to us that the eternal glory can be described as a prolonged Sabbath!
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I am not confused. And calling what is true a lie does not make what is true false. God indeed created His Sabbath for man before He revealed it to Israel. None of your argument provides evidence that mankind were revealed the Sabbath before the Genesis account was given to Moses.
     
  20. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Know what "Bah ! Humbug ! means?

    Now, plucking grain is neither good nor bad, nor is gathering sticks, but it's WORK that's not essential to be done at the time. The disciples wouldn't've starved if they hadn't plucked any grain, nor would the man gathering sticks frozen to death. In the eyes if the strictly-religious Jews, one was as bad as the other, & were violations of the Sabbath.

    Again & again, I shall cite Col. 2:16. Why would "the Sabbath" or "the Sabbaths" not include the regular weekly Sabbath ???????????

    Mrs. White couldn't dismiss that verse, nor its context of not being under the law, & neither can YOU.

    I shall always believe Paul over Mrs. White !
     
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