Haggard Still Struggling

[Aaron]

Like I said, he's hated by liberals. :thumbs:

 

[Martin]

You have a lot to learn about how one's sexuality is conditioned, and it IS conditioned. Yes, there is a natural inclination, but it is easily redirected especially when one is sexually abused.

==I don't know, but it seems that he did not come out with that abuse story until after he was "caught". Btw, you need to go on Youtube and look at several of the videos featuring Mr. Haggard. There is one where he is asking people about their sex lives. That should have sent up some red flags right there.

 

[Martin]

My point is this: You're content to base your judgment on assumption and prejudice. They sound very much like the liberal, atheistic blogs concerning him and his situation. Unfortunately this doesn't argue well for your discernment or credibility.

==First, if it is prejudice to say that a man who has been caught using drugs and involving himself in homosexual activity should not have a place of leadership in the church than yes I am gladly prejudice. As for liberals and atheists, people like Haggard feed those fools with the very talking points they use against Christians (example). That is a secondary reason we need to distance ourselves from public figures like Haggard. The first, and most important, is the Biblical reason (1Cor 5:9-13).

Faced solely with the information in the article cited in the OP, you add your assumptions and prejudices and conclude that he is an unscrupulous profiteer (ignoring the fact that documentary producers generally do not pay their interviewees—unless they want their credibility questioned up front.)

==I don't care if the documentary was shot before or after his fall. He is still guilty and he still humiliated the body of Christ and Christianity. That is the major problem.

I go on the the information presented and say, God bless him for being honest about his affections and holding to the truth that homosexuality is ungodly.

==I've not heard him say that. What he says is that "sexuality is confusing and complex". From a Biblical point of view there is nothing confusing about it. The Bible is clear that homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1Cor 6:9-10). We are warned in Scripture not to fool ourselves or allow others to fool us with empty words, "no immoral or impure person" will enter God's Kingdom (Eph 5:3-12, Gal 5:19-21, 1Jn 3:9-10, Rev 21:8, 27). Haggard needs repentance, not counseling. He needs to learn the fear of the Lord (Pr 8:13).

I repeat what I have said. He needs to go away and live a low profile life. He needs to stop trying to be Mr. big shot and realize that he has disgraced the church. If he wants to sell insurance, fine. But he needs to do it away from the cameras.

 

[Martin]

Like I said, he's hated by liberals.

==So is Bill O'Reilly, but he denies our Lord's Word in John 14:6. Being disliked by liberals is not a sign of orthodoxy or righteousness.

 

[Marcia]

Isn't a Christian caught in such sin supposed to go through a process of repentance and restoration? I though that was the biblical model.

Has Haggard gone through this process? He was a very public figure (to put it mildly) with lots of people being led by him (pastor and Pres. of the NAE). It seems if he had gone through this process or was going through it, he would let it be known. If he was restored, it would be known.

If he has not gone through this process, then one must wonder about his submission to God and his repentance.

 

[ccrobinson]

You don't understand how great a debtor you are yourself to the grace of God, if indeed you are a recipient thereof.

I would appreciate it if you keep your lectures to yourself about what a great debtor I am, or subtly suggest that I'm not. I know full well.

You have a lot to learn about how one's sexuality is conditioned, and it IS conditioned. Yes, there is a natural inclination, but it is easily redirected especially when one is sexually abused.

Are you done making excuses for him? He made the choices to do what he did and he did it thinking that he wouldn't get caught. He had ample opportunity to do what was necessary to deal with the issue and he didn't. Let's not pretend there's something admirable here. There isn't.

He needs to go away and live a low profile life. He needs to stop trying to be Mr. big shot and realize that he has disgraced the church. If he wants to sell insurance, fine. But he needs to do it away from the cameras.

QFT&CA

 

[Aaron]

I would appreciate it if you keep your lectures to yourself about what a great debtor I am, or subtly suggest that I'm not. I know full well.

Apparently not, or you would acknowledge you'd be in the same boat as he if not for God's grace. As it is, you give all the evidence of one who thinks there is something in that bag of flesh of his besides worms. That you are who you are because of some intrinsic virtue.

Are you done making excuses for him?

Who's making excuses for him?

He made the choices to do what he did and he did it thinking that he wouldn't get caught. He had ample opportunity to do what was necessary to deal with the issue and he didn't.

You do not understand the bondage of sin, especially in the area of one's appetites, or you would not utter such foolishness. (And you need no lecturing concerning God's grace?)

People are not called slaves to sin for no reason. You have no idea what he was thinking.

Let's not pretend there's something admirable here. There isn't.

You must be dull of hearing. I don't think there is anything admirable about any man.

God exposed him,
God removed him from office,
God removed the honor of men,
God is shouting it from the housetops,

and, in the face of fierce scrutiny of the world and the church, God has prevented him from justifying his behavior or his affections.

From my point of view, he's in a better position before God than you are, and I say God bless him.

 

[Aaron]

The Bible is clear that homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1Cor 6:9-10).

The gays hate him too! :thumbsup:

 

[rbell]

From my point of view, he's in a better position before God than you are, and I say God bless him.

way out of line, and that's not your call to make.

 

[ccrobinson]

Apparently not, or you would acknowledge you'd be in the same boat as he if not for God's grace. As it is, you give all the evidence of one who thinks there is something in that bag of flesh of his besides worms. That you are who you are because of some intrinsic virtue.

Don't pretend that you know anything about me or the ways that I've failed.

Who's making excuses for him?

You are when you said this.

You have a lot to learn about how one's sexuality is conditioned, and it IS conditioned. Yes, there is a natural inclination, but it is easily redirected especially when one is sexually abused.

Seems to me that you want to give him an out. What other conclusion should I be drawing here?

As one who has failed in areas of morality, I know full well that he made the conscious choice to do what he did and he wasn't going to stop because he thought he wouldn't be caught. But, as it does with all of us, his sin found him out.

You do not understand the bondage of sin, especially in the area of one's appetites, or you would not utter such foolishness. (And you need no lecturing concerning God's grace?) People are not called slaves to sin for no reason. You have no idea what he was thinking.

You assume too much.

I don't think there is anything admirable about any man.

I'm confused by your posts.

That he is sticking to his guns condemning the lifestyle to which he is still chained speaks volumes.

From my point of view, he's in a better position before God than you are, and I say God bless him.

If you were someone on this board that I respected, I would be concerned.

 

[Martin]

The gays hate him too!

==I'm not sure why you think that is important. The gays hate Haggard because they think he is hiding his true feelings. That is obvious from replies on Youtube videos featuring Haggard.

From my point of view, he's in a better position before God than you are, and I say God bless him.

==God bless Haggard, for what? For trying to excuse his sin? He says that "sexuality is confusing and complex" and then turns around and tries to blame his confusion on childhood abuse. Correct me if I am wrong, but did he say anything about childhood abuse before this? True or false, it sounds like an excuse to me. When David confessed his sin he did not seek to place blame on others. He realized that his sin was against God and that he was to blame for his own sin.

"For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against You, You only, I have sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that You are justified when You speak and blameless when You judge" -Ps 51:3-4

Maybe the reason Haggard finds "sexuality is confusing and complex" is because he has not denied himself, taken up his cross, and followed the Lord Jesus Christ? Maybe he finds it confusing because he is not saved? The Bible is clear that the lost person cannot escape their sin. They can clean themselves up on the outside but the inside is still dead. Such people are in danger of once again being overcome with sin (2Pet20-22). The Bible is clear that homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1Cor 6:9-10). We are warned in Scripture not to be fooled with empty words because "no immoral or impure person" will enter God's Kingdom (Eph 5:3-12, Gal 5:19-21, 1Jn 3:9-10, Rev 21:8, 27). As I said in an earlier reply, Haggard needs repentance, not counseling. He needs to learn the fear of the Lord (Pr 8:13).

 

[JamieinNH]

Isn't a Christian caught in such sin supposed to go through a process of repentance and restoration? I though that was the biblical model.

Yes, and Haggard decided not to go through this process. Instead, he started it when caught and ended it shortly after (two day I think)...

So, no he has not gone through the process yet wants us to believe he is 'ok'.


Jamie

 

[Aaron]

If you were someone on this board that I respected, I would be concerned.

If I were someone you respected, I'd be concerned too! :laugh:

Anyway, just tho't I'd point out the fact that when he could have renounced his religion, fully embraced sodomy and gained the sympathy and support of the world he didn't.

That says something, and I say God bless him!

 

[THEOLDMAN]

If I were someone you respected, I'd be concerned too! :laugh:

Anyway, just tho't I'd point out the fact that when he could have renounced his religion, fully embraced sodomy and gained the sympathy and support of the world he didn't.

That says something, and I say God bless him!

It's very difficult for a man like me ...to love a man like that(Haggerd) ...but I'll do it, because, it would be pleasing to my Father.

 

[ccrobinson]

Anyway, just tho't I'd point out the fact that when he could have renounced his religion, fully embraced sodomy and gained the sympathy and support of the world he didn't.

Good point. Why didn't you just say that earlier and we could have avoided this unpleasantness? :wavey: