double post
Has God determined all things?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Herald, Nov 25, 2012.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Benjamin
You rejecting it doesn't make it false.Click to expand...
Yes, and proved my point quite well.Click to expand...
Nice try, but I haven't misrepresented your view one iota.Click to expand...
Uh-huh :rolleyes: I fail to see you logically prove it though.;)Click to expand...
You need to come out from that spiritual cocoon you are in,You are close to being a PT correct?
If a person is all atrophied do you let them stay that way until they can no longer regain a range of motion to fuction well? Or do you set out the way they can be restored to full function? does it hurt a bit if your therapy requires they break some adhesions? But that is how they will improve their function,through stretching. Herald answered you much clearer than I have.
In this thread is one of the best attempts to stretch a bit, before it has gotten derailed. look up the verses Herald offered.
How do you read Isa 46:9-11 and see otherwise...what do you see in those verses? -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterWinman said: ↑Iconoclast said: ↑You are a false teacher who wrests scripture. Young's translation in no way says a person must have life or be regenerated in order to believe, it says like all the other versions of scripture I showed you that whoever believes may HAVE life. Perhaps you do not understand that word "have" as written, but it shows life as the effect or result of believing. It shows that life FOLLOWS believing, thus faith precedes regeneration.
Your refusal to accept truth does not change facts, and no scholar translates John 3:16 in agreement with you.
You just go on ahead and deceive yourself, no truly honest or sincere person is fooled. HoS easily recognized how you attempt to re-write scripture to support your own view.Click to expand...
Again you ignore the truth
Perhaps you do not understand that word "have" as written, but it shows life as the effect or result of believing.Click to expand...
He is losing credibility as fast as you saying paul was alive before the law!
63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
or here is the amplified version for Hos....
63 It is the Spirit Who gives life [He is the Life-giver]; the flesh conveys no benefit whatever [there is no profit in it]. The words (truths) that I have been speaking to you are spirit and life.Click to expand... -
HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Icon:
Your pathetic rant changes nothing at all.I quoted several different interlinears for you....I suppose they are all satan worshippers writing interlinears in their spare time....yes I see it clearly now.Click to expand...
Retract your false accusation.
i have asked several greek teachers about it...they were all lying to me also???Click to expand...
A satanic conspiracy.....Click to expand...
pull yourself together Hos.....put away your quintessential thesauras and learn some bible.Click to expand...
Monergism is also of the devil????Click to expand...
You have some insight there Hos...Click to expand...
lol...and an active imagination also...too much molinism has made you made most noble Hos...haha...now you have invited the wrath of Van on yourself....that will teach youClick to expand...
The "Wrath" of Van perpetually abideth upon all of us......You and I alike. None can escape his wrath..........Actually, he was hacked off pages ago.....he just is re-inserting himself now. I don't think anyone cares though, these last few pages of interraction are infinitely more entertaining than any tit-for-tat with Van usually is. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterWinman said: ↑double postClick to expand...
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Iconoclast said: ↑Winman said: ↑Winman,
Again you ignore the truthClick to expand...
course believers have life...that is not the issue at all! Do you believe believers have death? What are you saying...you just ignored 5 different sources on the greek text....you will deny any i show you, or several others have showed you. Hos was out to lunch on that post. he has van after him now as punishment.:laugh: according to Hos...everyone else is under satanic control...all the interlinears and greek teachers:laugh:
He is losing credibility as fast as you saying paul was alive before the law!Click to expand...
You cannot show even one single verse that says regeneration or life precedes faith. You can't do it because no such scripture exists. No Calvinist has ever been able to show this, if they could the debate would be over.
To the contrary, there are many scriptures that show faith precedes regeneration, I have shown several in this thread alone, John 20:31 and John 3:15-16. These verses show that whosoever believes will HAVE life. Life follows first believing.
You are a false teacher who wrests scripture.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterWinman said: ↑Iconoclast said: ↑You are a false teacher who wrests scripture.Click to expand...
I know who saved me and it is the same God revealed in the scripture to the historic church throughout time.
Your man centered works gospel is not what I believe at all.
The truth I believe you call false...
The God I trust, you do not.
I have explained this to you before.
You have come in to disrupt another thread and have not added to the discussion at all.When Herald or anyone else answers with solid posts , not only do you not respond , but you offer falsehood and others no longer post.
...you do this whatever it is:BangHead:
you post scripture saying that believers, believe.... as if this is a news flash:laugh: They do not speak to how regeneration takes place, only that it does.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast said: ↑Once was bad enough:laugh::laugh::laugh:Click to expand...
Like my father told me when I was a boy, bad people NEVER admit they are wrong. -
double post
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Iconoclast said: ↑Winman said: ↑We have two different God's and two different gospels. Your inability to understand scripture ...anyone of them indicates to me what the situation is.
I know who saved me and it is the same God revealed in the scripture to the historic church throughout time.
Your man centered works gospel is not what I believe at all.
The truth I believe you call false...
The God I trust, you do not.
I have explained this to you before.
You have come in to disrupt another thread and have not added to the discussion at all.When Herald or anyone else answers with solid posts , not only do you not respond , but you offer falsehood and others no longer post.
...you do this whatever it is:BangHead:
you post scripture saying that believers, believe.... as if this is a news flash:laugh: They do not speak to how regeneration takes place, only that it does.Click to expand...
I also asked him to show which of his proof texts says that God determines all things that come to pass. I challenge you to answer this question. Which of those scriptures Herald offered as proof texts says God determined all things that come to pass?
Go ahead, lets see you answer that.Click to expand... -
Icon,
I’ve established a logical definition for Determinism and it fits your view like a second skin; doesn’t matter whether you like the term or not.
As usual you’re all over place (with common evasive tactics I have already predicted) trying to avoid the first part of this argument. The fact remains your view is that God fore determined all things and that defines the "Determinist" view adequately.
You are a Determinist, like the term or not this term has meaning as established with a simple bit of logic that even a child could understand as truth.
You're not going to get out of this "logical web" of truth which is merely a tool to support the argument by defining terms. Admit it...You're trapped again!
:cool: -
HeirofSalvation said: ↑O.K...........You do.......know who John Hendryx is, don't you???
Are you quoting him as a scholasitic and dis-engaged intellect on this topic?
JOHN HENDRYX...... I repeat....JOHN HENDRYX
Are you quoting "John Hendryx" to me?
John Hendryx.......The vaguely creepy (Child-molester-look-alike-Hendryx)
Of the Objectively Scholastic Website "Monergism.com"???
THAT Hendryx?????????
Are you insulting me on purpose?
Do you think I have never heard the bloviations of Hendryx????
Please answer this question in all honesty:
Do you un-equivocally believe that John Hendryx is perfectly objective and scholastically honest with all of his Theological descriptions of Soteriological debate???
Your citing Hendryx about this topic, is truly as meaningfull as if I were to cite Hitler about the value of Jews.....and I truly don't exaggerate. Hendrix is equally as objective about Soteriology as Goethe was about the "Final Solution".........
But Herman Goethe was at least intelligent.
Hendryx is simply stupid.
Guess what....I now know, without reservation, that you are similarly as informed (as I have submitted and demonstrated earlier) about the meaning of the word "Grace"............
as you are about the words:
"Synergism"
and
"Monergism"
You don't know what EITHER term means..........
and you have been tricked by the likes of Hendryx (of all people) into a definition of "Grace"......
I still don't call you dis-honest sir..........
I call John Hendryx dis-honest......and you ignorant or merely stupid for quoting him.Click to expand...
My argument will stand on it's theological merit. But in the end it reinforces my long held belief that this is all preaching to the choir. Each group is not going to be swayed by the other's argument. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Benjamin
Icon,
I’ve established a logical definition for Determinism and it fits your view like a second skin; doesn’t matter whether you like the term or not.
As usual you’re all over place (with common evasive tactics I have already predicted) trying to avoid the first part of this argument. The fact remains your view is that God fore determined all things and that defines the "Determinist" view adequately.Click to expand...
let's see.....so in your world...Judas did not want to betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver.....but God determined that he would no matter what???
21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.Click to expand...
Judas really did not want to betray him but somehow he was forced.???
Acts 1 answers for us:
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.Click to expand...
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:Click to expand...
Peter really meant to say///God forced you by determining to make you do it,so you are really not guilty??
Or was God sure that the depraved sinners would kill him by their own self will and sin??? natural men hate God.Natural men hate His absolute sovereignty and control over them and their volitional actions...
the reason you avoid scripture is....
it does not use the terms you use
it does not use philosophy
it does not use debate fallacies
it does not use terms like determinism
it is not bound by your web..it is above and outside of it.
Men make moral choices but cannot submit voluntarily to God or His word.
As long as this is in the bible, what and who I believe are intact and we are heading to the decreed end.
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
the flesh profits nothing///fleshly logic and philosophy..profit nothing ...
the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterWinman said: ↑Iconoclast said: ↑I responded directly to Herald's post and showed scripture where God himself said he did not command the Jews to sacrifice their children, neither did this sin come into his mind or heart, therefore it cannot be that God determined this sin.
I also asked him to show which of his proof texts says that God determines all things that come to pass. I challenge you to answer this question. Which of those scriptures Herald offered as proof texts says God determined all things that come to pass?
Go ahead, lets see you answer that.Click to expand...
No matter what i offer, you reject it anyway..In your world I am false ..remember???If you believe that in reality there is some thing that actual does not occur to God's mind...I cannot help you.You need to come to know the biblical God.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast said: ↑this is why I call you forth from your web Benjamin...come to scripture..it is not a "rabbit trail' according to Jesus.Click to expand...
"There is not a bit of logic to the Calvinist conclusion that man is responsible for his sins if his choice is not freely made. So what will they argue to support their Determinist doctrines: A. That man being responsible is a mystery. B. They will deny logic as a way to determine the truth. C. They will begin with Ad Hominem and try to change the subject. D. They may offer scripture which they interpret as supporting their view of Divine sovereignty while avoiding the second part of the argument asking how man is held responsible, or how God is just to reassign what He is responsible for onto His creatures. But they will not offer a valid argument because there is none to defend their Deterministic position."
Save the Archie Bunker interpretations, described as evasion tactic “D”, would you?
It seems you are having difficulty to even honestly approach establishing a simple definition of your view?
Do you, or do you not believe God fore determined all things? All we need here is an honest answer from you. If yes, I will describe your view as a view of Determinism, thus you as a Determinist. Get over it and let’s get on with it. Otherwise people might think you are using disingenuous debate tactics to avoid this simple issue of establishing a definition for your view. What would Jesus say about that kind of witness?-> (rhetorical question, not meant to aid you in another distraction ;)) -
Winman said: ↑No Bible scholars agee with your interpretation. All say that whoever believes will HAVE (following) life (regeneration). No scholar interprets John 3:16 to teach that whoever has life will believe.Click to expand...
Winman said: ↑This is how Calvinists butcher the scriptures. Iconclast is actually trying to say that John 3:16 says the exact OPPOSITE of what it truly says, and how all scholars interpret this verse.Click to expand...
Winman said: ↑KJB-For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Does this verse say whoever has life will believe? NOPE.
NIV- "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,* that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Does the NIV say whoever has life will believe? NOPE.
ESV- "For God so loved the world,* that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
Does the ESV say whoever has life will believe? NOPE.
NASB- "For God so loved the world, that He gave His *only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Does the NASB say that whoever has life will believe as Iconoclast says? NOPE.
No versions of scripture interpret John 3:16 the way Iconoclast does. Iconoclast interprets this verse in exact reverse of what all scholars say. All scholars interpret John 3:16 to say that whosoever believes will HAVE life. This life is regeneration.
You, nor any other Calvinist/DoG in history has EVER shown a single verse that teaches regeneration precedes faith. You cannot show such a verse, because it does not exist.
You must resort to twisting and wresting scripture in a vain attempt to make it agree with your false doctrine.Click to expand...
Not a single verse you posted above shows that belief precedes regeneration. In fact ever Calvinist or believer in the Doctrines of Sovereign believes in Jesus Christ.
Furthermore you have been shown numerous times Scripture showing that regeneration precedes faith. You simply let "Big I" overrule what Scripture teaches! -
"There is not a bit of logic to the Calvinist conclusion that man is responsible for his sins if his choice is not freely made.Click to expand...
As soon as there is a compulsion upon your will are you somehow absolved of all responsibility?
Man makes choices. Those choices are constrained by his nature and the strong compulsions of that nature upon him. Nevertheless, he STILL chooses and is indeed responsible.
you are merely asserting that man cannot be responsible if a choice is not freely made. Support that conclusion then and tell us what you mean by "freely made".
That man being responsible is a mystery.Click to expand...
They will deny logic as a way to determine the truth.Click to expand...
Revelation is the only sure way to determine truth. All else, including logic are only tools that are too easily and too often misused.
They will begin with Ad Hominem and try to change the subjectClick to expand...
how God is just to reassign what He is responsible for onto His creatures.Click to expand...
Unless you deny God's omniscience and omnipotence you are not free of the problem you perceive Calvinists to have in this area. If you deny God's omniscience, in my opinion, you have greater problems... -
OldRegular said: ↑That is false on its face and a shameful post!
All scholars? All scholars. Unmitigated and unethical nonsense Winman.Click to expand...
Winman;
Not a single verse you posted above shows that belief precedes regeneration. In fact ever Calvinist or believer in the Doctrines of Sovereign believes in Jesus Christ.
Furthermore you have been shown numerous times Scripture showing that regeneration precedes faith. You simply let "Big I" overrule what Scripture teaches!Click to expand...
It is useless to debate with Calvinists, there is no truth in you. -
Iconoclast said: ↑64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.Click to expand...
It says he knew, not foreordained, who would not believe and the one who would betray him. Now John 6:65 is a good verse, and if I were a Calvinist I would use it more often. But I see it as always, that God provides and offers salvation for all, even Judas that false disciple, through the convicting work of his Holy Spirit, and those who respond in belief are given to Jesus and those who don't are not given to Jesus and are damned to hell. Even those elect Israelites are damned to hell if they believe not Jesus. Judas was a self-made wicked man and he rejected Jesus in unbelief.
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