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Hip-Hop Prayer Book?
- Thread starter standingfirminChrist
- Start date
TaterTot, I think he was directing that more towards me.
You see, I think he's gotten on his high horse again and he is not looking for a dicussion, he is only looking to hit with his opinions and then cut and run.
He didn't bother to read or even ask questions, if he failed to understand what I meant.
As always, he is set in his ways.
What I meant by my post was that simple fact that just because something is worldly doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit can't intervene and bring the person around to Christ.
Some people think that handing out tracts is wrong. I see it as a way of breaking the ice and getting people interested in knowing more.
I believe that is just what this Hip Hop Prayer Book does. It opens a door for people to want to know God more. To me, that is better than "hopeing" they find Christ one their own.
Not everyone is raised in a Christian home.
Not everyone was forced to go to church as a kid until they knew God
Some people started going to church for the "Fun" things the churches do for the youth groups, which is NO different than this prayer book, in my opinion, and yet, the kids that went to church for the "fun" things, as they went there to have fun, they also learn about God and Jesus' saving grace. The Holy spirit worked in their hearts while they were having fun.
This Prayer book is a tool just like a youth day at church or an outing to the zoo lead by the church or any number of worldly things we do with the youth of the church.
Jamie
You see, I think he's gotten on his high horse again and he is not looking for a dicussion, he is only looking to hit with his opinions and then cut and run.
He didn't bother to read or even ask questions, if he failed to understand what I meant.
As always, he is set in his ways.
What I meant by my post was that simple fact that just because something is worldly doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit can't intervene and bring the person around to Christ.
Some people think that handing out tracts is wrong. I see it as a way of breaking the ice and getting people interested in knowing more.
I believe that is just what this Hip Hop Prayer Book does. It opens a door for people to want to know God more. To me, that is better than "hopeing" they find Christ one their own.
Not everyone is raised in a Christian home.
Not everyone was forced to go to church as a kid until they knew God
Some people started going to church for the "Fun" things the churches do for the youth groups, which is NO different than this prayer book, in my opinion, and yet, the kids that went to church for the "fun" things, as they went there to have fun, they also learn about God and Jesus' saving grace. The Holy spirit worked in their hearts while they were having fun.
This Prayer book is a tool just like a youth day at church or an outing to the zoo lead by the church or any number of worldly things we do with the youth of the church.
Jamie
standingfirminChrist
New Member
tatertot said:SFIC, you keep winning the lost your way and I will keep on my way, and at least we will be winning the lost, which is what its all about.
If we win the lost using worldly ways and values, we are just winning them to the world.
2 Corinthians 6:14 14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
This Prayer book is a tool just like a youth day at church or an outing to the zoo lead by the church or any number of worldly things we do with the youth of the church.
You are correct. The Hip-Hop Prayer Book is a tool... a tool of the devil.
You guys must be forgetting that the devil knows scripture and will use scripture in his attempt to deceive. That is exactly what is being done with this book. It has already changed the truth into a lie by changing the beautiful poetry in Psalm 23.
then again SFIC - you havn't proved that
the music you listen to VS. hip-hop.
you havn't proved that hip-hop is worldly.
"because it appeals to your flesh"
yah. so you dont think the music you listen to appeals to your flesh? bah. try another one.
because it appeals to the flesh. you havn't proved that it appeals to my flesh. sure havn't.
because its got rhythm, beat, etc....
oh forget it. some people's kids...
the music you listen to VS. hip-hop.
you havn't proved that hip-hop is worldly.
"because it appeals to your flesh"
yah. so you dont think the music you listen to appeals to your flesh? bah. try another one.
because it appeals to the flesh. you havn't proved that it appeals to my flesh. sure havn't.
because its got rhythm, beat, etc....
oh forget it. some people's kids...
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
TaterTot said:Exactly. I was "drawn" in to church initially by a hotdog party. Many groups argue that we shouldn't have to draw people in. Well, it got me to church, and the Holy Spirit got a hold of me once my belly was full and I sat there listening.
The Holy Spirit uses anything He wants to. There are Bibles of ALL sorts - camouflage ones for the military, and so on. God uses many things to get our attention, and I just cannot say that He wouldnt use this book to reach the hip-hop generation.
This is where you and I disagree, and the root of our disagreement is theological in nature, which leads to a difference in methodology. I don't believe it was a hot dog that drew you to Church and subsequently to God. I believe it was the grace of God. How does this effect our methodology? Well, since you believe that worldly entertainment and satisfaction is what is going to draw the lost into Church and ultimately lead them to Christ, you are constantly looking for the latest fad and clinging to worldly methods to introduce spiritual issues. This is, at best, a confusing and mixed message. Since I believe it is the grace of God which draws the lost to Church and ultimately to Christ, I am not looking to the latest worldly fad, but rather, to the grace of God to draw them in. I, therefore, continue to proclaim the Word of God and leave it to God to save his elect.
Joseph Botwinick
PastorSBC1303
Active Member
Joseph, I would never attempt to speak for Tater, but I don't think she meant that a "hot dog" drew her to the church, but that the Holy Spirit used a hot dog event to get her to church.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
LeBuick said:I can't tell you how to win the youth to Christ but I will say I consider that the greatest task we as preachers have today. If we loose them there is no future to the Church and this world will become more hopeless than it is today.
What is this? No future for the Church and the world will become more hopeless? Are you serious? How hopeless is the world already without Jesus? They are completely and utterly lost already and their only hope is the grace of God. What is it that Christ will build his Church on? The youth? Believing that the children are our future may go well in Whitney Houston songs and work for band programs in the public school, but to say that they are the future of the Church and everything rests on them is a very humanistic approach to the Church. The foundation of the Church is Christ and his Word. Don't you believe that God will preserve his Church and his Word with or without the youth? This kind of man centered thinking is really puzzling to my mind when I try to reconcile it with the Bible. We did not build the Church and we will not be the ones who will preserve it like an army recruiter. God built it and will preserve it by his sovereign will.
Joseph Botwinick
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Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
LeBuick said:Guys, come down out the pulpit and get in the midst of you people. It is ok to preach an unadulterated Gospel. However, it does not penetrate if it is neither relevant or real in their lives.
If one preaches the unadulterated Gospel, it is ridicilous to think that it will be irellevant and not penetrate the lost. God's Word does not return void. If you think you need to add to the Word of God to make it relevant, I feel sorry for you.
Joseph Botwinick
Magnetic Poles
New Member
Tater Tot, sure you are not Patty? Remember the theme song about a hot dog making her lose control?
Where Cathy adores a minuet,
The Ballet Russes, and crepe suzette,
Our Patty loves to rock and roll,
A hot dog makes her lose control --
What a wild duet!
Still, they're cousins,
Identical cousins and you'll find,
They laugh alike, they walk alike,
At times they even talk alike --
You can lose your mind,
When cousins are two of a kind.
Joseph_Botwinick said:What is this? No future for the Church and the world will become more hopeless? Are you serious? How hopeless is the world already without Jesus? Joseph Botwinick
Exactly, and you can't come to the lost on your level. You have to meet them on their level then help them grow to GODS level. You ever see a starving man refuse to eat because of the table clothe? So why are we trying to serve them fancy meals. Bring them something they can digest. Remember, they need milk before meat!
Joseph_Botwinick said:If one preaches the unadulterated Gospel, it is ridicilous to think that it will be irellevant and not penetrate the lost. God's Word does not return void. If you think you need to add to the Word of God to make it relevant, I feel sorry for you.
Joseph Botwinick
What good would it do to preach the best sermon of your life if you preach it in spanish? It may have been good but it did not penetrate! Make your message real in their life. Make it relevant to their world and daily living and you will have folks hungering for more.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
LeBuick said:Exactly, and you can't come to the lost on your level. You have to meet them on their level then help them grow to GODS level. You ever see a starving man refuse to eat because of the table clothe? So why are we trying to serve them fancy meals. Bring them something they can digest. Remember, they need milk before meat!
Actually, they need to be regenerated by the grace of God before they can even accept the milk. There is no hope whatsoever for the lost except the grace of God. I am not the one who is going to bring them to God's level so they can accept him. They will never choose Christ on their own accord without the powerful hand of God regenerating them. Salvation is of God, not man.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
LeBuick said:What good would it do to preach the best sermon of your life if you preach it in spanish? It may have been good but it did not penetrate! Make your message real in their life. Make it relevant to their world and daily living and you will have folks hungering for more.
More man centered reasoning. If God wished to use my preaching in the wrong language to save his elect, he will do it. Look what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:1-5. The salvation of the elect is not about us, but rather about God and his grace. I am on my way to Church. Talk to you later.:wavey:
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick said:If God wished to use my preaching in the wrong language to save his elect, he will do it.
So, If God wanted to use this Hip Hop Prayer book to save his elect, he could do that also correct?
Jamie
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Absolutely. But, I am not going to resort to that just because it is a pragmatic humanistic approach that I think is the only hope for reaching certain lost folks. And the fact that God used those with bad doctrine or wrong ideas to accomplish his will is not an endorsement for the Church as a whole to do likewise. Even though Paul praises God for the preaching of those with false motives, this is in no way an endorsement as being acceptable:
Phillipians 1:15-18
I am not saying that LeBuick is preaching from false motives, but I do think we need to beware of man centered theology which makes man responsible for the salvation of others.
Joseph Botwinick
15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.[c] 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
Phillipians 1:15-18
I am not saying that LeBuick is preaching from false motives, but I do think we need to beware of man centered theology which makes man responsible for the salvation of others.
Joseph Botwinick
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TheWinDork
New Member
Sorry! Ain't buying it!
Folks, This Rap stuff was created by the Negro people,
I do not like that kind of music, (So what!! [DHK])
Personally, I don't care for the music either. But there is a way to express yourself without offence to others.
DHK
Folks, This Rap stuff was created by the Negro people,
I do not like that kind of music, (So what!! [DHK])
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18 KJV)
Personally, I don't care for the music either. But there is a way to express yourself without offence to others.
DHK
Last edited by a moderator:
I see where the differences are here - it's going back to the Calvinist/Arminian argument. If God's calling someone, that person will come to Christ no matter what yet 'watering down' the gospel, we're making it a wishy-washy one that won't stand. But then the other side is saying that, yes, God's drawing someone but it's OUR job to bring them to Him in a way that they will understand. So, depending on your view, you will have a different view of how to draw others to Christ.
I'm one who thinks that God is drawing people to Himself yet we need to be relavent to them and bring the Gospel to them in a way they can understand. I'm not giving my little ones (3 and 5) sermons from Spurgeon to listen to - because it's just a bunch of words to them - but I AM bringing the Gospel to them in a way that they can understand. As they grow, their understanding will grow and we will leave the old ways behind. I know people who were brought to Christ in MANY different ways - not always the 'textbook' way yet these are people with REAL faith in Christ and have now matured to a place beyond that old way. God draws people and I believe He uses each one of us, in our uniqueness, to bring others to Christ in a way that someone else might not be able to. If someone's heart is softened by God to respond to something like the "Hip-Hop Prayer Book" and then they look further for more about God - and begin reading their Bible, looking for a good church, spending time in fellowship and growing - who are we to say that that is evil? Jesus approached people in a very different way than the religious leaders of His time and even HE was declared wrong in His doings. Why did Jesus not say to the woman at the well, "You are a whore and you need to repent now or else you're going to hell!" Instead, He spoke to her on HER level, allowed dialogue to take place and He spoke to her heart issue that was going on. Can He have convicted her the other way? Of course He could!! But I think there was a lesson there for us. We need to reach these people in their own unique way and GOD will change their hearts. The way I was saved was very different than the way my husband was saved, which was very different than the way my mom was saved, which was very different from the way my pastor was saved........ Each of us were NOT saved in a very textbook way and there were different reasons behind our turning to Him (for me, I was young and I wanted to live with Jesus forever; for my husband, he knew ABOUT Jesus but didn't KNOW Him and he wanted to; for my mother, it was Jesus' love for her that drew her; for my pastor it was the burning alive of his saved girlfriend in a bus accident that brought him to a point of turning to Jesus.) The approach that my mother used for me would have been useless on my pastor and the approach for my pastor would have scared the bejeepers out of me!
Can we get down to brass tacks - what are each of US doing to draw people to the Lord and are we seeing fruit? Are we influencing our world for Him?? THAT'S what we should be doing rather than arguing like this!!
Ann
I'm one who thinks that God is drawing people to Himself yet we need to be relavent to them and bring the Gospel to them in a way they can understand. I'm not giving my little ones (3 and 5) sermons from Spurgeon to listen to - because it's just a bunch of words to them - but I AM bringing the Gospel to them in a way that they can understand. As they grow, their understanding will grow and we will leave the old ways behind. I know people who were brought to Christ in MANY different ways - not always the 'textbook' way yet these are people with REAL faith in Christ and have now matured to a place beyond that old way. God draws people and I believe He uses each one of us, in our uniqueness, to bring others to Christ in a way that someone else might not be able to. If someone's heart is softened by God to respond to something like the "Hip-Hop Prayer Book" and then they look further for more about God - and begin reading their Bible, looking for a good church, spending time in fellowship and growing - who are we to say that that is evil? Jesus approached people in a very different way than the religious leaders of His time and even HE was declared wrong in His doings. Why did Jesus not say to the woman at the well, "You are a whore and you need to repent now or else you're going to hell!" Instead, He spoke to her on HER level, allowed dialogue to take place and He spoke to her heart issue that was going on. Can He have convicted her the other way? Of course He could!! But I think there was a lesson there for us. We need to reach these people in their own unique way and GOD will change their hearts. The way I was saved was very different than the way my husband was saved, which was very different than the way my mom was saved, which was very different from the way my pastor was saved........ Each of us were NOT saved in a very textbook way and there were different reasons behind our turning to Him (for me, I was young and I wanted to live with Jesus forever; for my husband, he knew ABOUT Jesus but didn't KNOW Him and he wanted to; for my mother, it was Jesus' love for her that drew her; for my pastor it was the burning alive of his saved girlfriend in a bus accident that brought him to a point of turning to Jesus.) The approach that my mother used for me would have been useless on my pastor and the approach for my pastor would have scared the bejeepers out of me!
Can we get down to brass tacks - what are each of US doing to draw people to the Lord and are we seeing fruit? Are we influencing our world for Him?? THAT'S what we should be doing rather than arguing like this!!
Ann
/Jamie's mouth is left wide open in disbelief....
You may disagree with the music and the notion is can be used by the Holy Spirit, but I don't think THAT kind of post was called for or needed!
Proper term or not, me being from the South, if you tried to Witness to anyone with that type of tone, and language, you wouldn't get far.
Jamie
You may disagree with the music and the notion is can be used by the Holy Spirit, but I don't think THAT kind of post was called for or needed!
Proper term or not, me being from the South, if you tried to Witness to anyone with that type of tone, and language, you wouldn't get far.
Jamie
TheWinDork said:Folks, This Rap stuff was created by the Negro people, for the Negro people and before anybody gets their nose bent out of joint for me using the term Negro.... here is the proper definition of the term, see this link:
http://www.answers.com/Negro&r=67
I do not like that kind of music, I am not a Negro man. I am an all American white man... I find the so called "music" most repulsive and downright vomit provoking. The Music promotes a loose moral value, Violence, and other such ungodly practices. Kinda like it's cousin Rock and Roll did back in the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's and on into the 1980's, 1990's and today as well... I fail to see why ANY true Bible Believing, Blood Washed, true Christian and Believer in the Lord Jesus Christ would want to listen to or even partake in such heathenism. As the Bible says...:
How anyone who is truly a saved person can partake in such filth as this, is beyond me. further more, how anyone can take such a worldly vocabulary and true to use to promote the Glorious Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, is quite franly much beyond me.
Say what you will, but the only place I believe this Negro Music belongs is in the trash, with the rest of the garbage! If them Kids wanna get saved, let them Learn some Godly music....................In a HYMN BOOK!
-WTD
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
annsni said:I'm one who thinks that God is drawing people to Himself yet we need to be relavent to them and bring the Gospel to them in a way they can understand.
I am one who thinks it is more important to be relevant to God and bring them the Gospel in a way that is true and honoring to God. If they are of the elect, he will open the eyes of their heart and they will understand and accept the Gospel. Bottom line? My job is to proclaim the Word of God. It is up to God to draw his elect to him.
Joseph Botwinick