Hip-Hop Prayer Book?

[Joseph_Botwinick]

/Jamie's mouth is left wide open in disbelief....

You may disagree with the music and the notion is can be used by the Holy Spirit, but I don't think THAT kind of post was called for or needed!

Proper term or not, me being from the South, if you tried to Witness to anyone with that type of tone, and language, you wouldn't get far.

Jamie

This message is a rebuke for The Win Dork:

But, what is even more important than that is the fact that your language, and the bitter way that you expressed youself is not honoring to God. It brings no honor to God to throw racial slurs and use language that you know is hateful. All it does is satisfy your sinful flesh.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[annsni]

I am one who thinks it is more important to be relevant to God and bring them the Gospel in a way that is true and honoring to God. If they are of the elect, he will open the eyes of their heart and they will understand and accept the Gospel. Bottom line? My job is to proclaim the Word of God. It is up to God to draw his elect to him.

Joseph Botwinick

Absolutely! Yet, did Jesus tell the woman at the well to sell all she has and give it to the poor? No - He met her at her point of need. The Gospel is for all yet the way that we present it to different people will be different. It's the same Gospel and still honoring to God but it's just served in a little different way. Jesus fed the 5,000 in a particular way - by multiplying the loaves and fish. Couldn't He have just prayed for God to fill their stomachs so that He wouldn't have to 'feed their flesh'?

If someone is elect, won't they come to Christ even if we don't tell them? If God can use a donkey to bring His message, He most certainly can use a Hip Hop Prayer Book too.

Ann

 

[LeBuick]

More man centered reasoning. If God wished to use my preaching in the wrong language to save his elect, he will do it. Look what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:1-5. The salvation of the elect is not about us, but rather about God and his grace. I am on my way to Church. Talk to you later.:wavey:

Joseph Botwinick

Hey, looks like you're back. I pray service went well.

How can they hear without a preacher? The preacher is an important part of the process. GOD chose the foolishness of preaching. You know the problem with the guy standing on the corner waving his Bible? No one knows what he's talking about and those who do already know the Lord.

These youth have accepted Christ and are in the Church so I believe they are on milk.

I do not like that kind of music, I am not a Negro man. I am an all American white man... I find the so called "music" most repulsive and downright vomit provoking. The Music promotes a loose moral value, Violence, and other such ungodly practices. Kinda like it's cousin Rock and Roll did back in the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's and on into the 1980's, 1990's and today as well... I fail to see why ANY true Bible Believing, Blood Washed, true Christian and Believer in the Lord Jesus Christ would want to listen to or even partake in such heathenism. As the Bible says...:

You are describing normal hip hop, not christian hip hop. I'm not much on county western but I thank GOD for Randy Travis finding Christ and pray he brings many who followed him before over to the Lords side.

 

[LeBuick]

I see where the differences are here - it's going back to the Calvinist/Arminian argument. If God's calling someone, that person will come to Christ no matter what yet 'watering down' the gospel, we're making it a wishy-washy one that won't stand. But then the other side is saying that, yes, God's drawing someone but it's OUR job to bring them to Him in a way that they will understand. So, depending on your view, you will have a different view of how to draw others to Christ.

I'm one who thinks that God is drawing people to Himself yet we need to be relavent to them and bring the Gospel to them in a way they can understand. I'm not giving my little ones (3 and 5) sermons from Spurgeon to listen to - because it's just a bunch of words to them - but I AM bringing the Gospel to them in a way that they can understand. As they grow, their understanding will grow and we will leave the old ways behind. I know people who were brought to Christ in MANY different ways - not always the 'textbook' way yet these are people with REAL faith in Christ and have now matured to a place beyond that old way. God draws people and I believe He uses each one of us, in our uniqueness, to bring others to Christ in a way that someone else might not be able to. If someone's heart is softened by God to respond to something like the "Hip-Hop Prayer Book" and then they look further for more about God - and begin reading their Bible, looking for a good church, spending time in fellowship and growing - who are we to say that that is evil? Jesus approached people in a very different way than the religious leaders of His time and even HE was declared wrong in His doings. Why did Jesus not say to the woman at the well, "You are a whore and you need to repent now or else you're going to hell!" Instead, He spoke to her on HER level, allowed dialogue to take place and He spoke to her heart issue that was going on. Can He have convicted her the other way? Of course He could!! But I think there was a lesson there for us. We need to reach these people in their own unique way and GOD will change their hearts. The way I was saved was very different than the way my husband was saved, which was very different than the way my mom was saved, which was very different from the way my pastor was saved........ Each of us were NOT saved in a very textbook way and there were different reasons behind our turning to Him (for me, I was young and I wanted to live with Jesus forever; for my husband, he knew ABOUT Jesus but didn't KNOW Him and he wanted to; for my mother, it was Jesus' love for her that drew her; for my pastor it was the burning alive of his saved girlfriend in a bus accident that brought him to a point of turning to Jesus.) The approach that my mother used for me would have been useless on my pastor and the approach for my pastor would have scared the bejeepers out of me!

Can we get down to brass tacks - what are each of US doing to draw people to the Lord and are we seeing fruit? Are we influencing our world for Him?? THAT'S what we should be doing rather than arguing like this!!

Ann

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: Great post, how did we forget that Jesus din't hang with the Church folks. He was condemened for haging with the sinners.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Absolutely! Yet, did Jesus tell the woman at the well to sell all she has and give it to the poor? No - He met her at her point of need. The Gospel is for all yet the way that we present it to different people will be different. It's the same Gospel and still honoring to God but it's just served in a little different way. Jesus fed the 5,000 in a particular way - by multiplying the loaves and fish. Couldn't He have just prayed for God to fill their stomachs so that He wouldn't have to 'feed their flesh'?

If someone is elect, won't they come to Christ even if we don't tell them? If God can use a donkey to bring His message, He most certainly can use a Hip Hop Prayer Book too.

Ann

Ann,

Yes. The elect will be drawn to Christ one way or the other. But, God's Word tells us that he uses the preaching of the Gospel to bring his elect to himself. Certainly, God has used those who taught bad doctrine and for wrong intentions for his will, but, as I said before, that is not in any way meant to be an endorsement of that for the Church to embrace. Yes, Jesus did, by his sovereign will, meet the physical needs of many. And yes, Jesus did tell us to love others and to help them out. Perhaps, through that love, he is opening their hearts to the truth. On the other hand, perhaps he is hardening their hearts. Have you ever tried to help someone and yet, in the face of all that love, they continually spit in your face and run further and further from the Lord? I know God has. The bottom line with me is that I don't do good to others hoping this will be the magic button to push so that they will accept Jesus. I do it out of love and obedience to Christ and God is the one who draws his elect to himself.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[LeBuick]

I am one who thinks it is more important to be relevant to God and bring them the Gospel in a way that is true and honoring to God. If they are of the elect, he will open the eyes of their heart and they will understand and accept the Gospel. Bottom line? My job is to proclaim the Word of God. It is up to God to draw his elect to him.

Joseph Botwinick

How do you plan to get them in the building so you can bring them the Gospel in a way that is true and honoring to God. We are not using this as a foundation just like you don't teach sunday school from a hymn book.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Hey, looks like you're back. I pray service went well.

How can they hear without a preacher? The preacher is an important part of the process. GOD chose the foolishness of preaching. You know the problem with the guy standing on the corner waving his Bible? No one knows what he's talking about and those who do already know the Lord.

And how do you know this? How do you know that God is not going to pearce the heart of a lost man through the preaching of a street preacher (although, that is not really my style and think there is a little bit of a show happening there as well) and bring understanding to them. I think you put too much emphasis on what man does and not enough on what God does? That is my major beef with you.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

How do you plan to get them in the building so you can bring them the Gospel in a way that is true and honoring to God. We are not using this as a foundation just like you don't teach sunday school from a hymn book.

Who says my job is to get them into a building? I can bring them the Gospel in a way that is honoring to God by simply proclaiming the truth to them.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[LeBuick]

And how do you know this? How do you know that God is not going to pearce the heart of a lost man through the preaching of a street preacher (although, that is not really my style and think there is a little bit of a show happening there as well) and bring understanding to them. I think you put too much emphasis on what man does and not enough on what God does? That is my major beef with you.

Joseph Botwinick

Because I was one as a young preacher and found that method to have little impact. I'm not disgarding or doubting GOD, just sharing personal experience.

 

[TaterTot]

The WinDork said:
If them Kids wanna get saved, let them Learn some Godly music....................In a HYMN BOOK!

Good grief. Just because music doesnt come from a hymnbook doesnt mean its not Godly. Hymn doesnt automatically equal God's choice to pierce hearts. And lots of hymns are so wrong doctrinally (please dont get me started, lol)

 

[saturneptune]

Tator,
How about "I'll fly away......"

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Because I was one as a young preacher and found that method to have little impact. I'm not disgarding or doubting GOD, just sharing personal experience.

As with anything, results may vary with different individuals. The question is, inevitably, why it didn't work for you while it might for others. Does it have something to do with you, or does it have more to do with God? Were you doing something wrong? Perhaps. Maybe not. Without knowing the details and being able to compare it with what the Bible says, how can we know. Is it possible that, like Isaiah, you may have been doing exactly what God had called for you to do, and yet still saw little to no response to the message. Think about the call of Isaiah in Isaiah 6. The point is, if you are doing what God has commanded you to do in his Word, it ought not be of concern to you how many come. That is in the hands of God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[standingfirminChrist]

It is not our job to draw people to Christ. The Word of God tells us the Father and the Holy Spirit do the drawing.

You cannot draw people to the Lord through hip-hop trash. There is no such thing as hip-hop christian. It is an oxymoron. The phrase contradicts itself. The hip-hop, as TheWinDork put it, belongs in the trash.

Ye cannot drink from the cup of the Lord and the cup of devils. Ye cannot serve two masters.

 

[TaterTot]

JB said :
I don't believe it was a hot dog that drew you to Church and subsequently to God.
TT: nor do I. The Holy Spirit does the drawing and the working. The hot dog was a tool.

JB said:
How does this effect our methodology? Well, since you believe that worldly entertainment and satisfaction is what is going to draw the lost into Church and ultimately lead them to Christ, you are constantly looking for the latest fad and clinging to worldly methods to introduce spiritual issues.
TT says: Absolutely incorrect. You have no idea of my methods. And for the record, I believe that its the Holy Spirit that does the drawing, He is Sovereign and orchestrator of all things.

JB said:
Since I believe it is the grace of God which draws the lost to Church and ultimately to Christ,...
TT: the grace of God draws people to "church"? How do they know to go if they arent invited? The HS uses tools.

Joseph, you been around me long enough to know that I believe in the work of the Holy Spirit. I am very surprised that you say these accusatory things. There is no hint of worldliness in the way that I share what Christ has done for me. I dont read the Hip-Hop prayer book, lol, nor do I plan on it. And I dont even like hotdogs, lol. But Jesus met the needs of people where they were - at a well, on beggars corners, even in funeral processions. And Paul exhorts us as well by his own lifestyle to become all things to all people so that some will come to salvation. WHy didnt he say to just let the Holy Spirit draw them to Church? Why did he become like a Greek to the Greek and like Gentile to the Gentiles?According to Acts 15 some cultural accommodation is necessary.

 

[LeBuick]

As with anything, results may vary with different individuals. The question is, inevitably, why it didn't work for you while it might for others. Does it have something to do with you, or does it have more to do with God? Were you doing something wrong? Perhaps. Maybe not. Without knowing the details and being able to compare it with what the Bible says, how can we know. Is it possible that, like Isaiah, you may have been doing exactly what God had called for you to do, and yet still saw little to no response to the message. Think about the call of Isaiah in Isaiah 6. The point is, if you are doing what God has commanded you to do in his Word, it ought not be of concern to you how many come. That is in the hands of God.

Joseph Botwinick

Point made. I stand corrected on my comment.

There is no such thing as hip-hop christian. It is an oxymoron. The phrase contradicts itself. The hip-hop, as TheWinDork put it, belongs in the trash.

I see you're loosining on your position. We've about reeled you over to our side :laugh: :wavey: :laugh: :thumbs:

 

[annsni]

It is not our job to draw people to Christ. The Word of God tells us the Father and the Holy Spirit do the drawing.

No, you're right. God does DRAW people to Christ but it's our job to make disciples of all nations. We need to do that by getting with the people, talking to them in their language (whether it be Swahili or Hip-Hop) and preach to them the Gospel.

You cannot draw people to the Lord through hip-hop trash.

And the Scripture for this is.........

There is no such thing as hip-hop christian. It is an oxymoron. The phrase contradicts itself. The hip-hop, as TheWinDork put it, belongs in the trash.

I find this funny. The whole 'music other than what is old is evil' argument has been around for a long time. I think it goes all the way back to the 16th century! Hip-hop means: "1. A popular urban youth culture, closely associated with rap music and with the style and fashions of African-American inner-city residents.
2. Rap music." I don't see anything there that contradicts Christianity.

Ye cannot drink from the cup of the Lord and the cup of devils. Ye cannot serve two masters.

Very true, but where is a style of music (or a style of car, or a type of food) said to be evil in Scripture? Why are WE saying it's evil when GOD hasn't said so??

Ann

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

JB said :
I don't believe it was a hot dog that drew you to Church and subsequently to God.
TT: nor do I. The Holy Spirit does the drawing and the working. The hot dog was a tool.

JB said:
How does this effect our methodology? Well, since you believe that worldly entertainment and satisfaction is what is going to draw the lost into Church and ultimately lead them to Christ, you are constantly looking for the latest fad and clinging to worldly methods to introduce spiritual issues.
TT says: Absolutely incorrect. You have no idea of my methods. And for the record, I believe that its the Holy Spirit that does the drawing, He is Sovereign and orchestrator of all things.

JB said:
Since I believe it is the grace of God which draws the lost to Church and ultimately to Christ,...
TT: the grace of God draws people to "church"? How do they know to go if they arent invited? The HS uses tools.

Joseph, you been around me long enough to know that I believe in the work of the Holy Spirit. I am very surprised that you say these accusatory things. There is no hint of worldliness in the way that I share what Christ has done for me. I dont read the Hip-Hop prayer book, lol, nor do I plan on it. And I dont even like hotdogs, lol. But Jesus met the needs of people where they were - at a well, on beggars corners, even in funeral processions. And Paul exhorts us as well by his own lifestyle to become all things to all people so that some will come to salvation. WHy didnt he say to just let the Holy Spirit draw them to Church? Why did he become like a Greek to the Greek and like Gentile to the Gentiles?According to Acts 15 some cultural accommodation is necessary.

I stand corrected and ask your forgiveness if I spoke without wisdom and accused you wrongly.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[TaterTot]

no problem, bother I do enjoy the discourses.

 

[LeBuick]

Joseph, you been around me long enough to know that I believe in the work of the Holy Spirit. I am very surprised that you say these accusatory things. There is no hint of worldliness in the way that I share what Christ has done for me. I dont read the Hip-Hop prayer book, lol, nor do I plan on it. And I dont even like hotdogs, lol. But Jesus met the needs of people where they were - at a well, on beggars corners, even in funeral processions. And Paul exhorts us as well by his own lifestyle to become all things to all people so that some will come to salvation. WHy didnt he say to just let the Holy Spirit draw them to Church? Why did he become like a Greek to the Greek and like Gentile to the Gentiles?According to Acts 15 some cultural accommodation is necessary.

Wow, I had to find my lower jaw after reading this post. You blew me away. Now I know why Hubby needed to go for a PhD, he doesn't want to be accused of you knowing more than he. :thumbs:

All this from a Lady saved by a hotdog! Now there's what GOD can do :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

 

[Brian30755]

I really can't see this "Hip Hop Prayer Book" reaching anybody, because even if someone enjoys listening to Hip Hop music, I don't think they would enjoy reading Hip Hop.

As far as Rap and Hip Hop music goes, I personally can't stand it. But, I would rather my teenage son listen to Christian Hip Hop as opposed to "regular" Hip Hop any day.

I remember hearing Evangelist Jamey Ragle say one time, "If you don't think your kids are going to listen to music with a beat, you're crazy". I'd have to agree with him.