Hoax or Reality
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Yelsew, Sep 24, 2003.
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just-want-peace Well-Known MemberSite SupporterWouldn't this be a terrible HOAX if Jesus meant, as an after thought in the manner Calvinism seems to imply, that "only the elect will respond"?Click to expand...
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No!
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What difference would it make?
He commanded it.
We do it.
It's as simple as that. :D -
Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[Mat 28:16-20] Meanwhile the eleven disciples set out for Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had arranged to meet them. When they saw him they fell down before him, though some hesitated. Jesus came up and spoke to them. He said,All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And look, I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.'Click to expand...Click to expand...
I can't see how your position reckons here. Christ says he has all authority in heaven and on earth. You say his authority stops at the door of the human heart. How can you have any hope of bringing someone to Christ when you have no authority and nothing but your own ability to convince them to understand and respond? I am glad that I do not preach from that kind of hopelessness. I am glad that the Christ who called us to make disciples has the authority to actually accomplish that. -
And Jesus said to them, [Go ye therefore into all the world preaching the gospel so that those predetermined to believe, will!]
Right! What does God need man to go into all the world for? He commanded that man go forth making disciples. What for? in light of the truth that God is the Holy Spirit who regenerates "the elect only" so they can believe? There is no reason for man to do anything because man is hopelessly inept when it comes to spiritual things, you've said so yourself.
There is no reason for preaching since God must regenerate man before man can believe. UNLESS that is, man's belief comes from man's hearing the Word of God that the preacher is responsible to bring. Then the power is in the word, and not in the unbiblical declaration that man is regenerated before man believes.
The narrowness of your position makes it extremely weak and very suspect Larry. -
This is a proof text of the elect. It is not the business of the church, nor of Gospel preachers to 'get people saved'. Christ did this on the Cross, 'it is finished.'
The business of the church/Gospel preachers is to preach and make disciples (students) observing all things that Christ has commanded.
When this realization comes to you, there are no such difficulties in this passage as to whether or not this or any part of Scripture is a hoax.
Dallas -
Originally posted by Frogman:
This is a proof text of the elect. It is not the business of the church, nor of Gospel preachers to 'get people saved'. Christ did this on the Cross, 'it is finished.'Click to expand...
The business of the church/Gospel preachers is to preach and make disciples (students) [adherants to Christ, not "students"] observing all things that Christ has commanded.
When this realization comes to you, there are no such difficulties in this passage as to whether or not this or any part of Scripture is a hoax.
DallasClick to expand...
Regeneration prior to belief, belies "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God"
If one is regenerated, that means that the one who was an unbeliever is now a believer! Thus there is no need of preaching because regeneration has taken place already.
The truth is that until one hears the truth from the Word of God (preaching if you will), one will not believe. But the power of God's word is in its ability to persuade!.Click to expand... -
Originally posted by Yelsew:
And Jesus said to them, [Go ye therefore into all the world preaching the gospel so that those predetermined to believe, will!]Click to expand...
What does God need man to go into all the world for? He commanded that man go forth making disciples. What for? in light of the truth that God is the Holy Spirit who regenerates "the elect only" so they can believe? There is no reason for man to do anything because man is hopelessly inept when it comes to spiritual things, you've said so yourself.Click to expand...
There is no reason for preaching since God must regenerate man before man can believe. UNLESS that is, man's belief comes from man's hearing the Word of God that the preacher is responsible to bring. Then the power is in the word, and not in the unbiblical declaration that man is regenerated before man believes.Click to expand...
The narrowness of your position makes it extremely weak and very suspect Larry.Click to expand...
Remember, the general rule of thumb is "Say about your opponent what he would say about himself." Then respond to that. Anything less is unethical. -
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:Click to expand...23 ¶Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.Click to expand...Romans 5:1 ¶Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.Click to expand... -
Remember, the general rule of thumb is "Say about your opponent what he would say about himself." Then respond to that.Click to expand...
We are not trying to convince people by our own persuasiveness.Click to expand...
The reason for preaching is so that man has something to believe.Click to expand...
It is by the message preached that the unbelievers are saved.Click to expand...
It is the Holy Spirit that illumines man's mind through regeneration so that he understands and responds.Click to expand... -
just-want-peace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
While I don't have a dog in this fight, seems to me that the scriptures DO have enough "contradicting" statements regarding this issue that it does not behoove any of you to be so dogmatic about your position.
My leanings are in line with Yelsew, but I refuse to say that "this is the only option!" I DO know that I'm not a scholar, & am conceding that I don't have all the answers, (like a few of you!?), so I accept that my understanding is faulty, and not what it will be at some future date. Meanwhile I'll believe as I see fit and grant you the same courtesy, whether you decide to respond in kind or not.
Oh, I don't plan to list all the above mentioned scriptures that are "contradictory"; they have been posted numerous times before, so if you want them bad enough, you can do a search!
My point here is that each side seems to quote only the scripture that boosts their view and to a large extent ignore the other. When all of it is taken together, there's a lack of definitiveness, IMHO, that precludes the "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality that rears it's ugly head on this & so many other topics.
One other point, as I can see some tempers rising!
"Contradictory" DOES NOT MEAN THAT I BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES C_O_N_T_R_A_D_I_C_T THEMSELVES! Simply put, there are some that appear to offer the (an) opposite meaning of others. This of course is due to imperfect knowledge!!!! OK??
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Pastor Larry,
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
And Jesus said to them, [Go ye therefore into all the world preaching the gospel so that those predetermined to believe, will!]Click to expand...
The fallacy in the Calvinist stance is that it is exclusive, whereas God is not. God's only long established and continuing criteria for the Salvation of man is man's faith in Him, all 3 persons of Him.
It is through man's "God inspired effort" to comply with the commission of Matt 28 that God's Word is dissiminated across the face of the earth, into the outermost reaches of man kind. It is the Word that PERSUADES man to believe in Jesus. and it is man that believes unto regeneration! BELIEF PRIOR TO REGENERATION!
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What does God need man to go into all the world for? He commanded that man go forth making disciples. What for? in light of the truth that God is the Holy Spirit who regenerates "the elect only" so they can believe? There is no reason for man to do anything because man is hopelessly inept when it comes to spiritual things, you've said so yourself.Click to expand...
Paul is not God! The book of 2 Timothy is Paul's "private" letter to a disciple named Timothy, and Not God's command to mankind. The letter may be inspired by God, but Paul is not relaying God's Words to mankind as the Prophets of old did in their writings using phrases such as "Thus sayeth the Lord". The onus is on you to provide that kind of prophetic utterance wherein God is credited with saying that the Apostles are to go into all the world making disciples of the ELECT. Jesus certainly did not say that in Matthew 28! Your simpleminded belief that Pauls letter to Timothy equates to a Command from God is the only simple thing about this Stuff! It is difficult and that is why the Holy Spirit provides the light for the truth! -
2 Timothy 3:16
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
From: Gen. 1:1 To: Rev. 22:21
by HIS GRACE
mike -
Originally posted by tnelson:
2 Timothy 3:16
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
From: Gen. 1:1 To: Rev. 22:21
by HIS GRACE
mikeClick to expand... -
Originally posted by swaimj:
Then you are not doing what Paul did. He says on several occasions that he "persuaded" men. And in Acts there is one who heard Paul and said that he was "almost persuaded". Most Calvinistic theologians recognize that there is an appeal in the gospel to the human will. Apparently you do not (though strangely you try to persuade others on this board of your position).Click to expand...
My point was that the power of the gospel works in the power of the Spirit to illumine minds and give faith and repentance. I preach the gospel and appeal to people to respond in faith and repentance. But I understand that the Holy Spirit must be working for it to be understood.
Incorrect. Man has something to believe because Jesus died on the cross to save him. Preaching is to tell men the good news; that Christ died for him.[/qutoe]Again, reference the first line of me I quoted and don't twist my words. Preaching communicates to man the "what" of belief. Apart from communication of the message, man does not know what to believe for salvation. I can't imagine you honestly misunderstood this one.
No, it is by the message preached that man comes to faith and is saved. Unbelievers are never saved.Click to expand...
This statement assumes your theological position but does not prove it. Can you show a place in scripture in which illumination and regeneration are connected in this way?Click to expand...
As for my statement that you quoted as the first line of your post, you failed several times in this post alone. Please move past that. That is so frustrating to me and it is one reason why I post very little in here. No one seems to be able to discuss these issues as gentlemen. They instead resort to caricatures and twisting of people's ideas. Let's get past that.Click to expand... -
Is the topic here that Calvinism is a hoax, or that the Great commission is a hoax? :confused:
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Originally posted by Frogman:
Is the topic here that Calvinism is a hoax, or that the Great commission is a hoax? :confused:Click to expand...
That Jesus Christ who has been given all power and authority can not possibly know who the elect are.
It is the seed - root of Open Theism that is beginning to crop up in the Arminian side of this never-ending debate. -
Thanks, now I have to start a thread asking "what is open theism?" :rolleyes: I have heard it, but don't know it
Bro. Dallas [This is a wave, but if you catch him just right he is scratching his head ] -
Originally posted by Frogman:
Thanks, now I have to start a thread asking "what is open theism?" :rolleyes: I have heard it, but don't know it
Bro. Dallas [This is a wave, but if you catch him just right he is scratching his head ]Click to expand...
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