Jon,
What do you mean when you say "the cross was not God's only instrument in His plan of redemption"? Did God have another vehicle or instrument other than the Cross? The Atonement was accomplished on the Cross.
How About An Agreement ...
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Rippon, Aug 12, 2014.
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Thanks. -
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But I also reject the notion that the Cross was only to secure the salvation of the elect. Instead, I do believe that Christ’s death made salvation possible to all men but also that His death secured and made certain the salvation of the elect. Scripture is clear that faith is essential to salvation. If we are born “spiritually dead,” then there is a provisional element to the salvation secured at the cross…but God Himself meets that provision.
Consider also John Calvin's insistence that the "whosoever" of John 3:16 is an invitation to "all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off excuse from unbelievers." I do believe that the world is under condemnation for rejecting the Light...that the unregenerate are actually sinning by rejecting Christ - which implies possibility. I think that we are all under that condemnation, but that God draws the elect to Himself.
But in short, the difference is why Christ died. Some groups in both camps tend to oversimplify the Atonement and come up with a singular reason. For the elect, yes, Christ died to secure salvation. But for all men the Cross made salvation a possibility...a legitimate result of faith...if they would believe. But both the elect and reprobate refuse to believe in and of themselves. This faith is of God.
While we may continue to disagree, I do hope that you understand how I differ in terms of Arminianism.
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Is the atoning work of Christ powerful enough to save all (if Christ did, indeed, die for all men)? Certainly. There is no lack of power in the Atonement.
When you use the word 'possible' it creates a logical fallacy if the Atonement can only be efficacious for the Elect. Possible gives the idea of potential. IOW the Atonement has the potential to save all men. But that would only be true if election was not according to God's will of decree.
I guess I am having a difficult time with what I see as fence sitting. On the one hand you say Christ died for all men, but on the other hand you confess that that the Atonement is only efficacious for the Elect. I do not know how you can have it both ways. -
Reformed,
Thank you for taking the time to read my post. This one is a bit longer...sorry. That’s the problem with “debate forums.” Sometimes you run into people like me that may not articulate well. Perhaps I did not take enough care in choosing my words. I was trying to answer the question about how my view did not dip into Arminianism.
BTW...and to clarify...by post-Dort Calvinism I mean that Limited Atonement was rejected in much of the writings of the Reformed Church prior to Dort. It was not that they were on the fence or hadn't thought it through (although it was less an issue, I suppose). I already mentioned Calvin's writings, but also the Heidleberg Catechism (1563)... in part II. http://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/confessions/heidelberg-catechism -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I can understand how you would view it as a “middle ground” and perhaps a compromise between the two positions. I tend to think that this is how some arrive at their conclusions…their doctrine is reactionary, guarding against a view, rather than derivative of Scripture (and indeed, as we know TULIP, it was reactionary). So I do agree that my position is not one of guarding against Arminianism…but it is also not “backdoor Arminianism.” The “scope of the Atonement” is not the singular hinge upon which either position hangs. And I'm sure if I were Arminian except for this one point, it'd be called "backdoor Calvinism" by someone. -
Bro. James Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
"I once was lost; but now I'm found, was blind but now I see..."
What did Jesus tell a Master of Religion in John 3? "Ye must be born again--from above".
We seem to be mired in "Kosher BACON".
What was the acronym before Chauvin?
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James -
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My, my, my, Jesus tried to make this as simple to understand as He possibly could. All sin forgiven except unbelief. It's not complex. Could he have said it any clearer for us?
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It would be what some call "4 point", perhaps Amyraldianism in that I believe God ordained some to election but not all (He created some as vessels of mercy and others as vessels of wrath...the difference being grace through faith and not the Atonement). Personally, I believe it is the view of much of pre-Dort Calvinism...perhaps even 5 point if one is speaking of effectual redemption rather than supposing God intended no relation of the Atonement to the lost (but I did not come to my conclusions via "Calvinism"). I will note that it is within the bounds of what Spurgeon spoke of affirming "all five points." I think we're getting lost in tradition instead of Scripture here. I really don't care what label my understanding falls under...but I am open to discussion and correction of my views if I understand it to be in error (I will consider your view if you consider mine, and we can work through things even if we still part disagreeing). -
All who are really redeemed are all those, and those only that He intended to redeem.
Christ was the Substitute for certain ones and not all. How can one be a substitute if He doesn't act in the place of a particular person or group? I have never heard of a "potential" substitute before.
Christ is the Savior of those He saves. He doesn't save everyone --therefore He is not the Savior of their souls. Those He doesn't save did not have their sins paid for --they will pay for their own sins in everlasting Perdition. Can anyone in Hell possibly address Christ as Savior? Of course not. He is Master ...Lord of all, but not savior of every human head-for-head. -
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel
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