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How Did the Fall of Adam Affect the Lord Jesus?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Feb 17, 2018.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "JonC,

    That is not the Apostle Pauls belief...is it?

    "JonC,

    ,

    While he came in a body of flesh and blood....His body was...in the likeness of sinful flesh...it was not sinful flesh as we all have.
    yes...that is because of the incarnation.

    Maybe not to you...but the rest of the church see's it exactly that way.

     
  2. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Adam did exist before the fall (and he was "sinless" before he sinned). I agree that Adam had failed the test, but I believe that Adam failed the test by setting his mind on the flesh rather than on God.
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    You cancel your own argument, brother: we can simply view Adam as "being in the flesh" as opposed to being/walking in the Spirit.

    You also cancel grace through faith, implying that they pleased God through what they did, which itself cancels grace.

    Any time mankind walk in the Spirit, it is not a reward for good works, but the means by which we "please" God. The filling of the Spirit is usually for the purpose of ministry and service.

    The unrealistic nature of your scenario is that you interject Adam not pleasing GOd in the Garden, and it is safe to say that he did please God...until he sinned. At that moment we can relate his actions to being "in the flesh.


    Not a problem, that takes priority over everything that takes place here.

    Again, may God bless your studies.


    God bless.
     
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  4. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    That's actually a complicated question, because we have two deaths we must be aware of in Scripture: physical, and spiritual.

    In large part physical death is the primary penalty for Adam's sin. He lost access to the Tree of Life, which we presume contributed to continued physical existence (it never has nor ever will bestow eternal life, only God can do that through immersing believers into Himself). If you look at the Law, the penalty was physical death, not spiritual. If you look at the provision of vicarious death (animal sacrifice), all that granted was extended physical life.

    Secondly, I don't think we can attribute full power of death to Satan, but rather he is a cause of death in man, because just as he caused Adam to sin (and therefore die), his intent is to destroy men whenever he can. God is Sovereign, and that means over both life and death (as seen in the example of Job, Satan was forbidden to kill him (physically)).

    Third, in regards to spiritual death, or, Eternal Judgment, the basis of punishment is not because we descend from Adam, but because we...sin. Every man will be judged according to the sin he commits, as shown in passages such as Ezekiel 18 (which is a physical context), Hebrews 10:26-28, and 2 Peter 2.

    So the death in view would first be physical death. That this extends to eternal judgment can be seen, but I don't think we can dogmatically assert that everyone put to death in violation of the Law will undergo Eternal Separation, because even among Christians today the (physical) death penalty still exists. God can take the life of a Christian who is unrepentant in sin. This is seen in Ananias and Sapphira (and of course this applies assuming they were born again believers) and those who died because of partaking of Communion unworthily.


    Show me where Satan "was in the Garden" when God created it.

    What we are told is that it was the Serpent, and based on New Testament revelation we know that it was Satan behind what took place. I look at this as more of an instance of possession rather than the serpent was actually Satan, or at least, think that is more likely (because the serpent is cursed). Secondly, I think we also consider the fact that Satan is said in a couple places to be one who roams the earth, which means Satan was a visitor to the Garden for his evil purpose, not a resident.

    I think it a mistake to consider Satan as being part of Creation. There is no mention of Angels being part of Creation, other than as observers.


    God didn't need to test Adam, He knew he would sin, and this before He even created the heavens and the earth.

    Angels and demons are spirits, not gods, not men. The heavens and the earth were created for man, not Angels. Hell was created for Satan and his demons, and we cannot say for sure when that took place, but, it likely took place prior to the creation of the heavens and the earth.


    From a perspective dealing with man, perhaps. From a perspective dealing with fallen Angels, not really. God could have destroyed Satan and his cohorts at any time, and still can. Apparently they serve a purpose for now, but we can look at the Millennial Kingdom to see that Satan need not be on earth in order for man to sin. It might be viewed as similar to boot camp, which has obstacle courses, physical training, and drill instructors (who I am sure more than a few have likened to demons, lol).

    But again, God knew in advance that Adam would sin, and that death would come to all men, and that men would need to be reconciled to Himself. I think Reconciliation will place man in a higher state than Adam was when he was created, because God immerses believers in Himself, and will give them bodies suited to everlasting existence, which Adam was not created with. At least, that is how I see it. If Adam had not sinned, it is likely he would have continued to live forever, having access to the Tree of Life. But God knew that the result of man falling and being reconciled to Himself would produce a creation far greater than that originally designed.

    That is the Body of Christ, the Church.


    God bless.
     
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  5. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Great observation on "spiritual death". So many seem to invent the doctrine that the consequence of Adam's sin was that Adam died spiritually. The consequence, per Scripture, is twofold - a physical death and a damaged relationship with God because of sin.
     
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I hold to sin being a spiritual make up of us, as we have a soul/spirit inside this physical body, and THAT aspect of us, along with our flesh, became corrupted and tainted by the Fall of Adam!
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    JonC seems to be the one here that is deviating from the scriptural truths concerning the fallen nature of man, and how Jesus could not be just as we are in His humanity, but akin to how Adam was in his before the fall!
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Adam and Jesus both had sinless humanity for their natures, morally perfect, but when Adam sinned, his nature became carnal and natural, and Jesus never had THAT type of nature in Him!
     
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I eat tacos while driving down the road!


    God bless.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    he would know what it refers to , but that would not fit into his theology on this issue!
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Then you have decided that Christ could not have sinned?


    God bless.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God had to provide for Adam a sacrifice after the fall though, and Adam was afraid of God and no longer in relationship to him, so His nature did indeed change!
     
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not the soul, but the spirit, and Spirit.

    Man was created body and spirit, and became a soul, not that he received a soul.

    And the contrast between being born of flesh is to being born of God (of the Spirit, born again, born from above). Being born of God is a spiritual resurrection, man being born dead, though he has a spirit and a body.


    God bless.
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Much more than just damaged, as our spiritual connection to God died!
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus came in the likeness, not the sameness of us, for if His humanity nature was/is exactly same as what the fall did to us, he was not qualified to be the Messiah!
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He was in the very nature of God, so the answer is able to be tempted and tried, but not able to actually sin...
     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Does the nature of man change when we see him changed in his spirit, heart, mind?

    No.

    He is still possessed of the nature he was born into, the difference being his outlook, so to speak.

    But when God changes the heart, spirit, and mind, then we see a change of nature, and this because we now have a nature that w did not have when conceived and born into this world, the nature of God:


    Ezekiel 36:24-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.




    2 Corinthians 5:14-17
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

    15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

    16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.



    Adam died offering up the sacrifice of animals.


    God bless.
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I am glad you have come to that conclusion.


    God bless.
     
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Scripture?


    God bless.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are at enmity against God, in a state of being rebels against Him, as our flesh/nature does not seek to please and serve him, but to please and serve ourselves!
     
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