Hi npetreley;
A quote from you;
You could say that it was a gift because faith comes from hearing the gospel and the gospel was a gift from God so we would know the teaching's of our Lord. But the gospel is to be preached to every living creature so that we might aquire faith. The gift of eternal life is aquired by having that faith.
A quote from you;
No matter how you look at it a gift is something that has to be received or it is no longer a gift. This particlar gift has to be received by faith. How does one receive this gift in order to have faith? The gift being grace. You say we are regenerated in order to believe. We can't have regeneration with out grace. I believe that regeneration is the results of God's grace, because of our faith.
May God Bless You;
Mike
how do arminians reconcile this verse
Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by massdak, Jun 13, 2004.
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How do you make Matt. 22 the gospel?
Are you just looking for the word chosen and then building on it?
"42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her."
So were you chosen by Mary?
One of the chosen is a DEVIL
"70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
If you are one of the chosen how do we know you are not a devil?
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"18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."
Judas the "chosen"
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Where do we get faith?
Rom. 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." -
Many were called to the 'wedding supper' but many of them did not show. They rejected what was offered and were not chosen to be in the ceremony (or the book of Life).
That's the story, and I'm sticking to it. -
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quote; Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
No matter how you look at it a gift is something that has to be received or it is no longer a gift.
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This is a popular semantic argument, but it is flawed. Receiving a gift MAY involve action by the receiver, but it does NOT REQUIRE action on the part of the receiver. I can deposit $100 into your checking account, and you have received my gift without your will (free or otherwise) being involved in any way.
Now that is manipulative logic. A gift cannot be forced. I can make someone take something or give it to them deceitfully but that is not a gift. -
Hi Npetreley;
A quote from you;
I can deposit $100 into your checking account, and you have received my gift without your will (free or otherwise) being involved in any way.Click to expand...
You see I handle a lot of other peoples money everyday. Integrity in my position is very important. I would not accept the deposit from some one else to my account.It's not only dishonest but can get you into a lot of trouble.
If the difference between the saved person and the unsaved person is faith which originates in man (and not as a gift from God), then man has something about which to boast regarding his salvation.Click to expand...
Example;
Luk 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
The apostles asked and what did Christ do? but give him more of His word. He told them about the mustard seed. I don't know about you but everytime I read something from God's word it increases my faith. Which is why I try to read it everyday. When I miss a day it's worse than missing a meal.If you know what I mean LOL
May God Bless You;
Mike -
You see I handle a lot of other peoples money everyday. Integrity in my position is very important. I would not accept the deposit from some one else to my account.It's not only dishonest but can get you into a lot of trouble.Click to expand...
The point is simple. It is patently false to say that it REQUIRES action on the part of the receiver in order to receive a gift. It MAY involve action on the part of the receiver, but it is NOT required. So one cannot use the definition of what it means to receive a gift to "prove" that free-will action is part of salvation.
Does faith originate in man? Since faith comes by hearing the word of God I would say that it originated in God's word.Click to expand...
But if you are quoting scripture on this point, you are misquoting it. The scripture actually says:
Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The distinction is important, because it does NOT say faith comes by hearing the word of God. It says faith comes by hearing. Then it proceeds to say that hearing comes by the word of God.
Why is this important? Let's look at two key Greek words in this verse. The Greek for "hearing" in this verse is "akoe", which means "the sense of hearing". Note also that the Greek for "word" in "word of God" is NOT "logos" (as in written word) but "rhema" (as in uttered word).
So the verse, properly rendered in detail, would be:
17 So then faith [comes] by [the sense of] hearing, and [the sense of] hearing [comes] by the [uttered] word of God.
Now, I think you'll agree, this verse would be silly if the "sense of hearing" referred to the difference between deafness and the ability to hear sound. It obviously refers to the "ability to hear and understand" as described in sayings like "those who have ears to hear". And scripture reiterates where we get ears to hear when Deuteronomy 29:4 says Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.
That gives a whole new meaning to "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", now doesn't it?
May God bless you, too! -
Hi Npetreley;
A quote from you.
That really stretches the analogy past the breaking point. What you are talking about is a bank error. What I was talking about was a gift. It is not a bank error for me to deposit $100 into your bank account, and I can do so without you having to take any action whatsoever to receive that gift. I could continue to argue that I'd call you to tell you what I had given you so that you wouldn't assume it was a mistake, etc., but then we'd be fussing about the analogy and not the point.Click to expand...
The gift's reception IMHO depends on my desire for it. I believe God's word can and does create that desire in us for that Gift by us hearing it. I believe every man can hear and understand.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
It is not a matter of being dead spiritually that we do not hear or understand because we do. It is a matter of mans heart when hearing the gospel as to whether or not he responds. The gospel IMHO with the help of the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins softening our hearts making it possible to repent if we repent we are saved by the Faith that brought us Grace. Because it is through faith that we are granted Grace. Eph 2:8.
The point is simple. It is patently false to say that it REQUIRES action on the part of the receiver in order to receive a gift.Click to expand...
And scripture reiterates where we get ears to hear when Deuteronomy 29:4 says Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.Click to expand...
Deu 29:6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.
The way they had to know that God is who He said He is by all the things that took place in the wilderness being led by Moses who was led by God.
Not only that but God gave them a choice in;
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Was God talking about eternal life or natural life. Before I became a born again Christian I didn't know what blessings were or even if they exsisted. I certainly don't believe I ever received one until I received Christ as my personal Savior. He is the greatest of all blessings His blessings bring peace and strength that I never had before.
Most of our differences are minute believing what you believe about Christ is the most important no matter how you come to believe it.
May God bless you brother;
Mike -
Now you're quibbling about whether or not you can willfully reject a gift after you've already received it, but that still doesn't rescue the analogy. Whether or not you choose to RETURN or REJECT the gift AFTER you've RECEIVED it, you still received it without any action on your part.
Plain and simple, it does NOT require any will or action on the part of the receiving person in order to receive a gift.
The gift's reception IMHO depends on my desire for it. I believe God's word can and does create that desire in us for that Gift by us hearing it.Click to expand...
I believe every man can hear and understand.Click to expand...
Because it is through faith that we are granted Grace. Eph 2:8.Click to expand...
It is by grace that we are saved.
For by grace you have been saved...
We are saved through faith.
...you have been saved through faith
And that [faith] is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Paul was an excellent writer. I find it hard to believe he would have made such a grammatical error as to have meant "that" to refer back to either "grace" or "saved".
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:Click to expand...
After all this happens and God has driven them to recall how this all came about, God says He will regather and have mercy on His people and...note this very carefully...
6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
So before God even gives them the so-called "choice", God has already told them what their choice will be, what the consequences will be, and what God's SOLUTION to the problem will be. And nowhere does God mention that the solution will be YET ANOTHER CHOICE to accept salvation. The solution is that God Himself will circumcise their hearts so that they will love God and live.
Now - if God already knew what their choice would be, and already knew that He would have to solve the problem by stepping in and circumcising their hearts (regenerating the elect), then one must ask why He gave them the "choice" in the first place!
Personally, I think the answer is obvious, but I'll stop there.
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