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How do you deal with others here in our debates?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by zrs6v4, Nov 28, 2011.

  1. Jeremiah2911

    Jeremiah2911 Member
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    I'm going to get off the OP for just a short paragraph to give my opinion which isn't worth 2cents....

    I personally would agree with this statement to some extent--in my opinion, debating limited atonement is like the stripes on a zebra--non cals say Jesus tasted death for every man[not false]--I just see it as, if someone believes Jesus died for all, then His purpose obviously failed--because not all will be saved--and I know Jesus' purpose wasn't frustrated because He said It is finished!-- debate away! Our differences sometimes are just in semantics and you have to admit, it's humorous to read those "debates"

    But the issue of God's sovereignty [vs freewill] in soteriology/salvation is not just words or useless debate because if I really believed man ultimately had free will, then man, by necessity, would have something to do with his/her salvation and, then, for one thing,I don't see how it could be secure [thus how can non cals embrace the 5th pt of perseverance?].....also, God wouldn't get all the glory....lastly, I would think I should have to spend all my time as a preacher trying to change men's minds using emotion or whatever technique instead of preaching the Gospel [I grew up in a Church like that [very little Bible, lots of emotion, lots of people getting saved and lost and saved and lost--no thanks]

    I enjoy reading the debates [and I learn a lot] when they are objective--there are some that just like to throw bombs which maybe makes them feel a little better [I hope] :)--the issue as I explained above is important though
     
  2. Jeremiah2911

    Jeremiah2911 Member
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    Amen! I enjoy the civil debates, although I must say when you and Skandelon debate [very civil btw] I can't figure out what either of you are saying! :)--I think non cals should remember that many of us who consider ourselves Calvinistic didn't start off that way, and perhaps there is a tendency to get them to see our point of view and vice versa.....to me, the learning is the important thing--the learning of the Bible.....God bless Bro and keep up the good work!
     
  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    This is truly rich DiamondLady.

    C versus A debate.

    Is a Zebra black with white stripes or white with black stripes?

    Depends on how you look at it.

    HankD
     
    #23 HankD, Nov 29, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2011
  4. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    The same goes in regards to your camp, too. The problem I have, is most of the time, when the sledding gets rough, we get the "confession of faith", which were writtne by fallible men. The Word, written by fallible men, was written through the inspiration of the Spirit, making their writtings infallible.




    The fall of Adam causes us to die naturally. If Adam had not had done this, they would be alive yet today. The fall caused us to be placed under this curse. OUR SINS are what cause us to be seperated from God.


    Ezekiel 18:4 and 18:20
    4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


    20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Deut. 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

    So, it is us, who bear OUR SINS, and not the sins of Adam, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Caleb, Paul, Silas, David, Solomon, Nathan, Saul, Peter, James, John, Nathaniel, Samuel, Eli, Judas Iscariot, Jezebel, Elijah, Elisha, and any other person's name you can find in the bible.


    ETA: Jesus was/is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Jesus was/is the Lamb which taketh away the sin of the world. Christ died for the ungodly.
     
    #24 convicted1, Nov 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2011
  5. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Brother, and fellow Raiders Fan, you know I love you man, but your aassessment I cannot agree with, epecially when you say when it gets rough "most of the time" (my camp) resorts to using a confession!

    C'mon man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You know that's not a true rep!!!!! :laugh:
     
  6. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    I am not meaning that all of the Calvinists do this, but quite a few do.

    BTW, I got to watch the Raiders game on the local Fox station here in WVa!! It got kinda hairy towards the end, but a "W" is a "W"!!! Usually Fox shows the Redskins games, or if Cincy or Pittsburgh play an NFC team, covered by Fox, I usually don't get a sniff at a Raiders game.
     
  7. Jeremiah2911

    Jeremiah2911 Member
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    Ok so you and P4T should be thanking the Lord cause this Bears fan knows if Cutler wasn't injured youda lost 40-10 (ok maybe that's exaggerating but close!) :)
     
  8. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Ahhh haaaaaaa!!!!! A bitter Bears fan!!!!!!!!!! :tongue3:

    Let's say you were predestined to lose!!!!!!!!!
     
  9. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    I have to agree with you. They surely didn't choose to lose.
     
  10. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    In dealing with debates, first do this:
    [​IMG]

    then do this:
    [​IMG]

    then when you get tired of all that, do this:
    [​IMG]

    and when you wake up, you'll be like this:
    I WON! [​IMG]
     
  11. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Jesus death secured the payment for those whom would come to Him to be saved, all those whom the Father has given Him, drawn/convicted by the HS!
     
  12. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    Strangest thing about this Non-Cal/Cal debate both sides can get so hateful and accuse the other that they are not even saved. How sad is that? Not evereyone here does that but there are a few that are down right mean and remind me of Saul before he became Paul. I am ignorant about this John Calvin and was going to read up on the pros and cons of him. Seeing the fights here has changed my mind, I'm better off not knowing. These arguements have no edifying quality and cause more division in my view.
     
  13. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Can you document where a Cal has stated or implied a non-cal is not saved?
     
  14. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    Doesn't matter. Read the posts and see the judgement, hatred and condemnation on both sides. It's sickening.
     
  15. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    It does matter. You stated it, please provide documentation of those who are calling others unsaved. By the way, didn't you name others Pharisees?
     
    #35 preacher4truth, Nov 29, 2011
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  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    There is no way to document it because they probably have been deleted by the moderators and/or administrators of the BB.

    But, I have seen it done by name or at least by way of an oblique accusation or by innuendo.

    Best not to dig up these putrid semantic corpse threads anyway.


    HankD
     
  17. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    I've not seen a cal call into question anothers salvation. The putrid semantic corpses don't exist.

    To be honest, some of the other drivel does exist, but the calling into question others salvation? Nope.

    However, I have seen plenty of posts by non-cals of late calling and aligning cals as JW's and Mormons. I wonder what the implication of such is?
     
    #37 preacher4truth, Nov 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2011
  18. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    This is true, and there is hatred I'm sure but without being in the same room it isn't always hatred. At times its passion, but other times it is hatred (and it can be clear to see). The truth is that not only does it harm the two in debate, but also is repulsive. I do not think anger and passion is compulsive but that must be teamed with understanding and gentleness.


    I know we call this position Calvinism and sadly I find that this terminology casts a dark shadow over what is being said. It really isn't about Calvin or anyone who has been influencial in the past as we know, it is about what is revealed in Scripture. Therefore, when we read commentaries we must not do this prematurely before we have spent time with the Scripture ourselves nor can we push commentators aside as if their words are vain. Whoever or whatever John Calvin might have been it has very little bearing on my theological standpoints. In fact Calvinism predates Calvin by about 1500-1600 years :)

    As I tried to say earlier, I do not think you or anyone should allow debates to cast a shadow over any doctrine as if it is impossible to know because people argue over it and fight over it. I have heard that same charge toward religion in fact. How can you be so arrogant as to say you have the right religion or the right understanding about God (trinity) or know anything about salvation (soteriology)? The charge can be directed toward any study because debate and deceit exist in any conversation. We desire for things to be black and white, but nothing is that simple when you allow hundreds of voices chime in to twist your brain around a few times. I have found it keeps you quite humble. I do think these discussions lead to good edifying qualities when they are handled correctly.

    I am not so sure the impersonal online forum is the best place to handle these types of things. I think the forum is good for many things and I still opt to discuss these things on here. In person it is easier to read someone and when to know to quite, but on here I see a lot of assumptions as to how we think each other are acting and it usually leads to mini-wars that are extremely silly and no good.
     
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    What I think the confusion rests upon here is an lack of discernment between the demolishing of arguments like Scripture demands and ad hominim.

    When you say, "That thought process is horribly flawed and based in a very dangerous hermeneutic," people go nuts.

    But you are not attacking PEOPLE personally. You're attacking their IDEAS.

    But far too many people cannot tell the difference.

    WE ARE SUPPOSED TO ATTACK IDEALS.

    We don't get to abandon this God given duty just so people won't call us bullies.

    But here's the funny thing. When you attack ideas, the people who hold them often become offended and respond- IRONICALLY- with VICIOUS ad homenim.

    And they are the ones who most often pretend that the persons they are directly insulting or mocking are the ones who are out of line.

    This world is so mixed up, isn't it?
     
  20. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

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    Luke 2427 writes:

    "WE ARE SUPPOSED TO ATTACK IDEALS."

    Really? I think Luke may have stated a part of the problem in these Christian debates. Should we ATTACK anything? It is that ATTACK attitude that causes some problems and the ATTACK-like responses.

    We should be able to give discussions and reasons for our beliefs and why we disagree about with some beliefs, without the hostile attitude of attacking anything.
     
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