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Featured How do you know anything?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 37818, Mar 2, 2019.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    While it is true, faith does not cause anything to be true:
    Knowledge is not possible without faith.
     
  2. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    I'll bite and to be critical and dig into where your conclusion is headed, I would first call your premise into question in light of these scriptures:

    Mar 11:22-24 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. (23) For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. (24) Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

    Here we see the power of faith seems to cause things to happen, be true.

    The Devil believes {has faith} yet trembles, because of this knowledge (James 2:19), faith is revealed {known, clearly seen by all that are made} yet the truth held in unrighteousness, but they do have knowledge so they are without excuse (Romans 1:17-20) so then doesn't the faith in which you speak have to rely on love of the truth - to have true knowledge or knowledge of the truth? IOWs isn't knowledge always not only possible but necessary for true judgment to follow?

    Or doesn't true knowledge and true faith always hinge on volitional love of the truth?
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No. The translation "Faith in God" is literally "Faith of God," πιστιν θεου. God's faith, which entails understanding and knowing what God's will is on that matter. And we know if we ask according to God's will we also know for certain what the asnwer will be (1 John 5:4-5).
    No. Any kind of information to constitute knowledge, whether the information is true or not, has to be believed or it would not what something claimed by the one believing it. Think about it.

    Yes. It helps if what is believed is actually true.
    It helps if one loves the truth (1 Corinthians 13:6).
     
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The question needs to be asked, how do we recognized what is true?

    There are three main components that come into play here:
    1. Personal experience.
    2. Witness of others.
    3. Reasoning.

    Personal experience is where we all begin. Our 5 senses, see, hear, feel, smell, and taste. Which begins for most of us at infancy.

    At infancy the witness of other, typically at first our parents.

    Later others, such as teachers.

    Reasoning begins with the learning of our language from our parents. And instruction from others, such as teachers.

    Yes there are variables in all of this.

    Now as Christians we typically accept. that truth is absolute and comes ultimately from God (John 17:17; Genesis 1:1; Psalms 19:1-4). And God's natural revelation is the source for faith (Romans 10:17-18).
     
  5. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Where do you get that? Christianity is based upon historical fact.
     
  6. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    I don’t believe pulling out your Greek card changes the meaning that “your” faith “in God” demonstrates your ability to make things move in a certain direction as per this passage. Now, the degree of faith that we are capable of is another story, as in Jesus’ faith was great, I would put it that the spirit of His faith was without measure, wherein with this in mind Jesus instructs us and makes that comparison to our state of little faith, the faith of a mustard seed YET He tells us of this ability with the idea of great potential for growth.

    Note, in the context of the passage Jesus is talking to “you” (whosoever) about “your” faith having the ability to fulfill “your desires” through God. Certainly it is not meant as if we pull God’s strings but rather as in accordance to His will AND our desire in which He gives gifts to His children.

    I think my point remains: Here we see the power of faith seems to cause things to happen, be true.

    I think your point, “While it is true, faith does not cause anything to be true:” neglects that although it is as per God’s judgment and His will our faith does indeed cause things to be true as per our desire.


    I believe we were purposely divinely designed to have sense, reason and intellect wherein by our own volitional doing gained the attribute of knowledge bringing us to our own judgment which falls short of divine standards and separates us from God. Therefore, in love of the truth we must surrender to the God given information that we receive and put our trust into God. For example, the Devil has the information leading to knowledge but he does not want it to be true because he hates the truth. - Yet, the Devil still has the knowledge and it might be said that he believes it is true since he trembles at the thought of it.
     
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree, and it compares with passages that state that true faith originates with Christ ( Hebrews 12:2, Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20, Philippians 3:9 ), is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), is evidence of salvation ( Hebrews 11:1 ) and is delivered to the saints ( Jude 1:3 ), not to all men ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).

    The faith of the believer grows as trials and tribulations force them to rely, more and more, on their Saviour.
    But even one who has true faith as the grain of a mustard seed, can ask God for the impossible, and expect a positive answer ( Matthew 17:20, Luke 17:6 ).
     
    #7 Dave G, Mar 3, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Where is the "historical fact" found? Mainly in the witness of others found in the Christian New Testament writing. The evidence of the resurrection, for example, is only found in that written witness. All other claims are contingent upon those documents being true.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    We as believers have in our experience personal knowledge of actually knowing God (John 17:3; 1 John 5:10; Romans 8:16).
     
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There is a difference between our faith and God's faith. Our believing what we do not know will not cause anything. Only God doing the work will cause anything which being contingent on believing what we would actually know and believe from God. Why do we then trust said information?



    The Devil first lied (Genesis 3:4) and add the truth of God knowing (Genesis 3:5; noting Genesis 3:22). Now we as Christians believe this story for a number of reasons.
     
  11. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know if I believe that.:Wink

    Premise: Faith does not cause anything to be true.

    Premise: Knowledge is not possible without faith.

    Question: What is meant by knowledge here?

    If God declares something and you are made aware of it, is that knowledge?​

    Or is it only knowledge if you believe it?​
     
  12. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Yes, and those eyewitness accounts also have some secular collaboration. So the Christian faith is not a leap in the dark but based upon history and well-established history. The entire planet, to use another example, proves Noah's worldwide flood based upon geological facts.
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Something believed to be true.
    And are you believing it or not?
    Is it true to you if you do not believe it?
     
  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    True Knowledge is that which proves it self to be true.This only one of many reason we have prophecy in scripture. It proves that scripture is true. In fact prophecy is being proved in the news these days.
    MB
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    We have reality, what is actually out there, and we have our perception of it. I am aware of a claim, say the earth is about 4 to 5 billion years old. I know this "belief" is held by lots of smart people, and they claim to have evidence for it, but it is so complex I must take their word for it. Knowledge of falsehoods, thought to be true, like God chose individuals for salvation before creation, is still knowledge with some having faith in it, and some having faith not in it.

    The argument against knowledge contains the seeds of its own destruction, such as how do we know what is said about knowing is not knowing. :)
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Only second hand to written NT. Again, the NT is the only true evidence of the resurrection apart from our personally knowing God through Christ.
     
    #16 37818, Mar 4, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  17. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    A number of ancient writers mention Christ, as you know. We have more about Christ than we do about Julius Caesar. Christianity is based upon historical facts from eyewitness accounts.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Cite one who was such witness. Not just repeating the Christian claim years later.
     
  19. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Tacitus.

    How do you know there was a Julius Caesar? How do you know there was a Hannibal?
     
  20. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Because being grateful, haven been showed the truth (Romans 1:17-20), we are in a relationship whereby we freely seek wisdom and respond to God’s influences in love of the truth and having trust of His judgment.

    Jas 1:5-6 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

    Psa 37:4-5 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. (5) Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

    John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.


    Again, in this, abiding to His influences, we see the power of faith seems to cause things to happen, be true. No?

    Something to think about, although the Person of Christ, who set the example and had faith the Father I'm not so sure it can be said our Omniscient Father even has faith considering His nature of aseity.

    I don't believe this thought holds, because man has gained the knowledge of good and evil, man causes evil of his own doing, God did not do (determine) this work.

    Having made my point about evil not being the work or cause from God it (evil) cannot be contingent on knowledge given from God.

    Jas 1:13-14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

    Likewise, if man has independent knowledge of evil apart from God do you not believe he also has independent knowledge of his own desires to which God may bless according to man's faith and responses?
     
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