Short attention spans. Do you think the Lord sympathizes with that excuse? Isn't that a modern excuse? I don't think it was used as a phrase before the 20th century.
As I've said before, I don't advocate longer sermons than what most here are accustomed to just because they are longer. I want a 45 minute sermon, for instance, to be filled with meaningful biblical content. Al Martin isn't capable of delivering a 25 minute ditty.
EW&F has claimed he used to be part of that congregation if I recall correctly. I don't think he ever complained about long sermons in the past on the BB. When and if he becomes part of a legitimate assembly of believers he needs to let go of his inconvenience arguments. It doesn't wash.
How long should sermons be
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Earth Wind and Fire, May 2, 2014.
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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More research yields the following results:
Maurice Roberts
8 sermons in the 30s
12 sermons in the 40s
3 sermons in the 50s
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D.A. Carson (18 sermons)
3 sermons 40+ minutes
6 sermons 50+ minutes
4 sermons 60+ minutes
3 sermons 70+ minutes
1 sermon 90+ minutes
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John Weaver
21 sermons more than 50 minutes
3 sermons more than 60 minutes
1 sermon more than 70 minutes
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Rolfe Barnard
2 sermons over 20-some minutes
4 sermons over 30 minutes
8 sermons over 40 minutes
9 sermons over 50 minutes
2 sermons more than 60 minutes
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Leonard Ravenhill
1 sermon 30ish
4 sermons 40ish
9 sermons 50ish
6 sermons 60ish
3 sermons 70ish
2 sermons 80ish
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B.B. Caldwell
3 sermons 30+
18 sermons 40+
1 sermon 50+
2 sermons 60+
1 sermon 70+
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E.W. Johnson
1 sermon over 30 min.
10 sermons over 40 min.
14 sermons over 50 min.
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Ferrell Griswold
2 sermons more than 30 min.
13 sermons over 40 min.
8 sermons over 50 min.
2 sermons over 60 minutes
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Conclusion? Three of these eight preachers average in the range of 40-some minutes. Five of these preachers average more than 50 minutes per message.
(By the way, the last four men were all friends with Rolfe Barnard.)
Is it just a coincidence that of the 22 men I have listed in this thread averaged in the 40-some to 50+ range in their preaching? As I have said --solid preaching requires time --no shortcuts --no soundbites. The ancients didn't whip out their sundials and tap them thinking they had better things to do than attend the preaching of God's Word! -
Southern Baptist seminaries actually teach their students what constitutes great sermons. They tell them pastors who speak to great length are guilty of several mistakes that may never be pointed out to them, because after all, who's going to tell the pastor to wrap it up and sit down?
Pastors go into great detail in the introduction. Introductions that take forever make peoples minds wander to lunch or Fantasy Football. I don’t care if you have a great story. Get to the point. What are you talking about? Why should I care? How does this impact me? Whether pastors like it or not, that is what is going through the minds of the majority of the congregation, and castigating them for not being "interested enough to want to listen" won't get them to listen.
- Pastors try to include too many points in the sermon. Pastors should focus on a central idea, one point, and seek for two, perhaps three subpoints. Beyond that, it is nothing more than overreaching and overspeaking.
- Pastors are guilty of TMI -- Too Much Information. They introduce a central thought, and immediately become historians, laying the groundwork for the passage's background, history, social mores, etc. Not necessary. People who want to know that kind of detail will research it for themselves. Frankly, most people don't.
- Pastors "circle the runway." Sometimes I think they just don't know how to end the sermon, but the unfortunate truth is, they don't want to end it. They enjoy hearing themselves talk. They like preaching the gospel, which is a good thing, but there comes a time when they cease preaching and proceed to beat a dead horse. That is beyond the time to wrap it up and sit down.
- Pastors think more is better. It isn't. You can chastise people for not wanting to sit through more than a 30-minute sermon all you want, most people won't do it, and that doesn't make them less faithful, less attentive, or certainly less hungry for the word. A sermon that begins to go over 30 minutes causes people's attention to begin to drift. I love listening to great preaching, but "length" doesn't guarantee "great"! I have to consciously refocus myself on the message, and if I have that problem, I know a large number of the congregation do, too.
Pastors, who are you trying to reach? You? Or them? If you want to reach them, consider the attention span of the average American these days, Christian or not.
Did you know, according to the latest research, from 1998 to 2008, the average American attention span dropped from 12 minutes to five minutes. So that 30 minute sermon is about six times longer than your congregation pays attention to anything else.
If you want to go longer, are you really doing your job, or just being self-centered? -
Tom Ascol over at the 'Founders' website answers the inquiry "Who or what determines what is the appropriate length of a person's sermon?":
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1 message in the 30th range
8 messages in 40th
14 messages in the 50th
2 messages in the 60 range
So Tom Ascol is comfortable preaching around 50-some minutes on average.
His buddy,Dr. Tom Nettles :
4 sermons in the 30s
7 in the 40s
9 in the 50s
3 in the 60s
2 in the 70s
On average Tom preaches 50-some minutes. -
As I have said elsewhere, I don't think the term "attention span" was bandied about until the middle of the 20th century. It's just a sinful excuse for lazy, self-centered, spoiled, largely American Christians who haven't a clue.
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I'm not lazy, not self centered, and most certainly well educated, especially in matters of theology and doctrine.
I'm also evangelistic.
If I believe a sermon or service would cause an unbeliever to walk away from the church and from our Lord, I won't take them to it.
And if I believe any given pastor is full of himself and talks far beyond what the congregation wants to hear, I simply walk away.
Many years ago a thriving church, growing leaps and bounds, got one of those long winded pastors. Individuals approached him about it. He got longer. The deacons called him to task. He got longer. The elder board directed him to speak shorter. He got longer, and lengthened the song service.
He's gone now. Left when he grew the church to almost no attenders.
The simple truth is this: a sermon's length WILL be determined by the listeners, unless they are cultlike in figuring the head shaman controls their relationship to God. If a given pastor is long and boring, they will go elsewhere.
Preach as long as you want. If I figure you preach longer than you have something to say, I simply won't be there to hear it, and my relationship with Jesus Christ won't suffer a bit. -
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Many churches these days have multiple services. It is impossible for a pastor to speak that long and do three services in one morning. Pastors have learned to speak on point, stay on point, and most importantly, make a point. Many today who speak for more than 30 minutes miss the point.
You want to sit through an hour-long sermon? Fine. Go for it. But don't judge my refusal, or anyone else's to do so. Long sermons are mostly the product of arrogance or bad public speaking, not worthwhile information. As was said just before this: -
"Long sermons are mostly a product of arrogance or bad public speaking."
"Great speakers get carried away with their own self-importance."
They are "self-centered."
Now you want to pretend that you won't disparage the rest of us who appreciate longer sermons. TND, you speak with a forked-tongue. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
thisnumbersdisconnected
So...Dconn they preach long because they are self centered and egotistical?
Why would you have such a dim view? Not every word they say is a great gem. Some parts of a message speak to part of the people and some others are interested in other sections of the message. What if you would have them cut off the parts that help the one group.?
This shameful condition of coming with a mind full of vain thoughts;
14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?
rather than seeing these carnal vain thoughts as the problem, you and Nodak suggest it is the pastor and the sermon length. I suggest it is people who have no appetite for the things of God.
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Preaching......is not story telling. It is an exposition of God's revealed word.
A story to illustrate a point or two in the sermon is fine as long as the word of God gets unfolded and preached. Your pastor and Nodaks I would suggest are telling more little stories than preaching.
People who want to know that kind of detail will research it for themselves. Frankly, most people don't.[/Click to expand...
Pastors "circle the runway." Sometimes I think they just don't know how to end the sermon, but the unfortunate truth is, they don't want to end it. They enjoy hearing themselves talkClick to expand...
This is not true in any church I have been in.. If that is going on, it is not a God called man .
They like preaching the gospel, which is a good thing, but there comes a time when they cease preaching and proceed to beat a dead horse. That is beyond the time to wrap it up and sit down.[/Click to expand...
Pastors think more is better. It isn't. You can chastise people for not wanting to sit through more than a 30-minute sermon all you want, most people won't do it, and that doesn't make them less faithful, less attentive, or certainly less hungry for the word. A sermon that begins to go over 30 minutes causes people's attention to begin to drift. I love listening to great preaching, but "length" doesn't guarantee "great"! I have to consciously refocus myself on the message, and if I have that problem, I know a large number of the congregation do, tooClick to expand...
What you are describing is the flesh warring against the Spirit.
Surely you have noticed when you are at pray or prayer meeting you must work to focus and not allow these drifting thoughts to overtake godly ones.It is the same with hearing a sermon....it is work, not entertainment.
I've got some difficult questions for my pastor friends on here, and I offer them in love and fellowship. The rest who have argued for long sermons, what are you trying to prove, that you are hungrier for the word, more faithful and holy than the rest? Balderdash.Click to expand...
Deep down, I'm pretty sure you like shorter sermons, too, if they feed your need. So, here we go, from my own professional perspective as a counselor:Click to expand...
Pastors, who are you trying to reach? You? Or them? If you want to reach them, consider the attention span of the average American these days, Christian or not.
Did you know, according to the latest research, from 1998 to 2008, the average American attention span dropped from 12 minutes to five minutes. So that 30 minute sermon is about six times longer than your congregation pays attention to anything else.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
nodak
If I believe a sermon or service would cause an unbeliever to walk away from the church and from our Lord, I won't take them to it.Click to expand...
And if I believe any given pastor is full of himself and talks far beyond what the congregation wants to hear, I simply walk away.Click to expand...
Many years ago a thriving church, growing leaps and bounds, got one of those long winded pastors. Individuals approached him about it. He got longer. The deacons called him to task. He got longer. The elder board directed him to speak shorter. He got longer, and lengthened the song service.
He's gone now. Left when he grew the church to almost no attenders.Click to expand...
The simple truth is this: a sermon's length WILL be determined by the listeners, unless they are cultlike in figuring the head shaman controls their relationship to GodClick to expand...
Again this is an ungodly perspective, To speak of a God called pastor as the head shaman betrays your thoughts are skewed.....
If a given pastor is long and boring, they will go elsewhereClick to expand...
If a pastor is boring at all ,he is not God's man.
Preach as long as you want. If I figure you preach longer than you have something to say, I simply won't be there to hear it, and my relationship with Jesus Christ won't suffer a bit.Click to expand...
Who are you or the "congregation to rule over the eldership? If they are not called of God , you should not sit there. If they are you have no right to rule over them;
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. -
Rippon said: ↑Someone please find at least seven preachers on sermonaudio.com who average 20 to 25 minutes. If there are such creatures I dare say they do not unpack the Word of God much at all.Click to expand...
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InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
So much of this depends on the speaker. For example, we had a guest speaker two weeks ago that preached for 35 minutes and had me frequently glancing at my watch. Last week it was 40 minutes with assistant pastor and a lot of checking on time. Today our pastor went 50 minutes, it flew by and I was sorry it ended.
I will say this--30 minutes is the bare minimum; 40-45 is about right. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterInTheLight said: ↑So much of this depends on the speaker. For example, we had a guest speaker two weeks ago that preached for 35 minutes and had me frequently glancing at my watch. Last week it was 40 minutes with assistant pastor and a lot of checking on time. Today our pastor went 50 minutes, it flew by and I was sorry it ended.
I will say this--30 minutes is the bare minimum; 40-45 is about right.Click to expand...
a friend posted this on facebook;
http://theaquilareport.com/why-so-many-churches-hear-so-little-of-the-bible/#.U3gG2Os6gj8.facebook -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite SupporterInTheLight said: ↑So much of this depends on the speaker. For example, we had a guest speaker two weeks ago that preached for 35 minutes and had me frequently glancing at my watch. Last week it was 40 minutes with assistant pastor and a lot of checking on time. Today our pastor went 50 minutes, it flew by and I was sorry it ended.
I will say this--30 minutes is the bare minimum; 40-45 is about right.Click to expand... -
Reset your watches
Obviously some folks have a different meaning for the word l-o-n-g. I would say that 42.50 minutes would be a bare minimum for the time taken to preach a good sermon. That's not long at all from my point of reference.
For many of the preachers I listed they are at full throttle at that point. Maybe we can consider 45 minutes as the standard length. Anything over an hour may be considered long, but many times still quite good. You might have noticed where several of the preachers I featured went up to 80-some minutes on occasion. That wasn't their normal length --but they did go to that point.
Again,as I have said several times: some shorter sermons of 25 to 30 minutes or so may be fine and dandy. But on a regular basis the flock needs more meat.
Those of you who you who just cannot conceive of listening to a sermon of 45 plus minutes need to open your minds,plant yourself down, and hear some good preaching from sermonaudio.com
For review:
Short :under 30 minutes
Standard :45 minutes
Long : over one hour
All three lengths by various preachers may be good. A good spiritual diet for a congregant might very well be a preacher in the standard parameter normally.
Some who normally preach near the hour mark have a lot of fat content. Or to mix metaphors --they blow a lot of hot air. Some who preach 25-30 minutes may pack a surprising amount of meat in a short space. Or they might be skimping the people. I think one of the major roles for a pastor is that Sunday sermon. He should be preparing all week for it. If what comes out is a little ditty then I think the people have been robbed. They deserve a better undershepherd. -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite SupporterRippon said: ↑Obviously some folks have a different meaning for the word l-o-n-g. I would say that 42.50 minutes would be a bare minimum for the time taken to preach a good sermon. That's not long at all from my point of reference.
For many of the preachers I listed they are at full throttle at that point. Maybe we can consider 45 minutes as the standard length. Anything over an hour may be considered long, but many times still quite good. You might have noticed where several of the preachers I featured went up to 80-some minutes on occasion. That wasn't their normal length --but they did go to that point.
Again,as I have said several times: some shorter sermons of 25 to 30 minutes or so may be fine and dandy. But on a regular basis the flock needs more meat.
Those of you who you who just cannot conceive of listening to a sermon of 45 plus minutes need to open your minds,plant yourself down, and hear some good preaching from sermonaudio.com
For review:
Short :under 30 minutes
Standard :45 minutes
Long : over one hour
All three lengths by various preachers may be good. A good spiritual diet for a congregant might very well be a preacher in the standard parameter normally.
Some who normally preach near the hour mark have a lot of fat content. Or to mix metaphors --they blow a lot of hot air. Some who preach 25-30 minutes may pack a surprising amount of meat in a short space. Or they might be skimping the people. I think one of the major roles for a pastor is that Sunday sermon. He should be preparing all week for it. If what comes out is a little ditty then I think the people have been robbed. They deserve a better undershepherd.Click to expand... -
Earth said: ↑80 minutes ....really? 80 minutes. What in the world did they have to say to the congregation in 80 minutes that they couldn't say in 45????Click to expand...
Check out Leonard Ravenhill. On his first page of 25 he has 2 that are in the 80s. D.A. Carson has 1 that is over 90 minutes!
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