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Featured How many of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit still operate today?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Dec 17, 2016.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    As per the listing iby Paul?
     
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Why?

    HankD
     
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Because their purpose has passed. Read The New Covenant Ministry of the Holy Spirit by Larry D. Pettegrew.

    Ask why God bestowed spiritual gifts. When we correctly answer that question we can more readily come to a better understanding of when, and why, they ceased. :)
     
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  5. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Whatever Gifts HE wants to give.
     
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  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Hebrews 2
    3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
    4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

    Once confirmation was made they were no longer necessary.

    I'm wondering if Yeshua meant "fruit" of the Spirit?

    HankD
     
  7. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    First and foremost, Paul has at least three major lists and references to other giftings not in a list.

    Second, there does not seem to be any indication that the lists are exhaustive.

    Third, most of the gifts are integrated with the personalities of the persons - the people are truly the gifts - except for a listing of manifestations of the Holy Spirit, sometimes call "sign gifts", in 1 Corinthians 12:7-11.

    Fourth, God uses whatever means He desires to do His work in and through us. I have seen most of those gifts active at one time or another in my 37+ years as a believer. When they are exercised in a legitimate way, they bring glory to God and the attention is NOT on the person whom the gift was exercised through. That's why you usually only hear about those who are falsely claiming the gift, and it leads people to think that God doesn't ever work that way.

    Most of the time, God does not supernaturally intervene in a way that we can grasp, but sometimes He does.
     
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yep.

    A spiritual gift was a supernatural, Holy Spirit-energized ability that was sovereignly given by God for service within the local church during the transition from the old covenant program to the new covenant program. (Ibid, page 160)

    . . . (T)he Spirit gave gifts to the first Christians . . . to make the transition from the old covenant program to the new covenant program as smooth as possible. (Ibid, page 157)

    But the Holy Spirit bestowed all gifts abnormally during the apostolic era. Christians were enabled to minister without having to learn in a conventional way. They did not have to attend a Bible institute or a theological seminary, in other words, to be able to minister effectively. The very fact that they did not have the New Testament prohibited them from learning how to minister as we do today. They needed supernatural help from the Holy Spirit.
    (Ibid, 162)

    What is the relationship of the gifts to the new covenant ministry of the Holy Spirit? It is evident that the gifts were only inaugural in character, a truth for which we today can be grateful. To be under the full gift program is not something to be desired. The church members in the apostolic era always had to evaluate the prophecies, always had to determine if a translator was present, and always had to operate under the knowledge that their information was partial. Who would want this situation today? . . . (Ibid, 186)

    But Paul explained to the Corinthians that eventually revelation would be completed so that they would not have to go through all of the required checks. They could simply expound completed revelation. (Ibid, 186)

    [1] The revelational gifts, therefore, were bestowed on the apostles and prophets to explain what the church was to believe and how it was to operate in the first age of the new covenant program.

    [2] The miraculous gifts were given to authenticate the new covenant ministry and authority of the apostles—especially in the giving of revelation.

    [3] Many of the other gifts were given to enable the churches to function according to the will of God when no New Testament Scriptures were available on a widespread scale. We today have providential abilities, talents, or gifts that parallel the gifts of the New Testament era. But we must be careful that we do not focus so much on these that we miss the most important truths for spiritual maturity, such as the lordship of Christ and the sufficiency of the Word of God. . . . (Ibid, 187)
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Depends on the reason they were given. Scripture presents the gift of tongues as a sign for the unbeliever, and at least all other sign gifts as pointing to something other than the gift itself. Scripture presents all of these gifts as ending when that which they symbolize has arrived. I think that all agree on that much (if not, then we can allow them that bit of error as Christmas charity :D ). So people’s conclusions vary depending on their understanding of to what these signs point, and of course if that thing alluded to has arrived.

    If these things point to the completion of the Canon of Scripture, then these things ended when those books were completed, gathered, assembled and accepted either by the universal Church or by some governing church body. If these things point simply to the completion of the books which would comprise the Canon of Scripture, then these things ended as John authored Revelation.

    I think that there are a couple of problems with both of those reasons.

    First,, Sign gifts are described as being for the non-believer to validate what was said. Scripture, however, is not for the unbeliever but for the church. Many seem to think that Sign Gifts ended because the Bible was completed. Think about that for a minute, and consider the implications.

    This would mean that the completion of Scripture was for the lost. It would also mean that the Bible itself accomplishes the purpose Scripture presents as belonging to the Church (hence the sign gifts to begin with) as they point to Christ. And consider the implications of that. So regardless to say, I disagree with that logic.

    And second, both of those conclusions assume much of Paul's words, ignoring that his purpose is not denouncing other gifts but exalting love. It is too weak a support to be dogmatic about gifts ending.

    I believe that Paul’s comment was not about gifts ending but about love. He was simply saying that all of these gifts will end when that to which they point has come – generally speaking in order to highlight love as the greatest gift.
     
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  10. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Yea, the close of the cannon argument is way off base.

    1 Corinthians 13:10-12 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

    Knowing as I am known sounds like glorification to me.
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Eh....glorification, canonization.....tomato, tomahto :Laugh

    Some have used this verse to explain that sign gifts will operate until Christ comes. I'm not willing to go that far either. I think that Paul was speaking generally (when that which is perfect is come, that which is less than perfect is done away with).

    So my weird idea is that when and if we see these signs exercised, we compare them to how the Bible describes those things. If they match, and we still don't like it, we simply leave it alone and mind our business. If they are wrong, we warn our congregation.
     
  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Looking in a mirror and seeing ourselves as others see us is more in keeping with the context.
     
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  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

    Sign gifts never stood in place of Scripture. In fact, the Scripture that validated the gospel for the earliest church had existed for over four centuries. The gospel is proclaimed by the church. It is nonsense to believe that Scripture validates the gospel to the lost who do not believe the Scripture. You may say "but it is the Spirit"....but it has ALWAYS been the Spirit.

    The Sign Gifts plainly never stood in the place that Scripture now stands. The church validates doctrine by Scripture. But what validates the gospel to the world is the witness of the church.
     
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Then why were they necessary?

    HankD
     
  16. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    To authenticate the present reality of the Kingdom of God as it is proclaimed, taught and lived.

    Jesus sent out His disciples in the Gospels to do this very thing. The church in Acts also had their message and Kingdom lifestyle confirmed by the manifestations of the Spirit.

    Does that mean that signs and wonders follow every believer on a frequent basis? Nope. But if one is living in the Spirit, one will see God at work according to the needs of the situation and the will of God.
     
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  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    For the same reason they would be necessary today - to evidence God among His people.

    For example, the gift of tongues - where one speaks in a language unknown to him but understood by the unbeliever - is a sign for the unbeliever (the unbeliever discerns the language). In the assembly, only one was to speak so as not to cause confusion (if all spoke in tongues it would be as gibberish). The gift of prophecy is a sign to the believer (the secrets of the unbeliever's heart are disclosed to the assembly) and they call into account the unbeliever (or ungifted) who is convicted and realizes that God is with them.

    Signs never stood in the place of Scripture. The signs and miracles Jesus performed pointed the unbelieving Jews to who He is. Likewise, the sign gifts given to the church point the lost to who they are, that God is with them.

    Are they necessary today? I do not see that they would be necessary in our culture (we reject the supernatural as a whole). But I do not know that this can be said world wide (and even within segments of our own culture). So I take these accounts as they come my way.
     
  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Supposedly we have faith based upon the "unseen" why do I need "evidence"? The promises of the word of God do not require "evidence".

    Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    OK Jon at this point it seems you have confounded and/or made a distinction between signs for the believers (to provide evidence in the church but also signs to the unbelievers for evidence that God is with the "prophet" who reveals the secrets of the heart?

    Folks always want to validate "tongues". When you say that the unbeliever"discerns the language" Is it your belief that tongues are known languages given as a gift to those who preach the gospel? There is also the "raising of the dead" as a "sign". It seems "tongues" are plentiful but not the later. Handling of venomous reptiles also (Some deaths have been reported) and wondrous works as well (Day of Pentecost).
    What of theses other "signs" which are less abundant ans even non-existant, do they not apply today? if no why not?

    "WE" reject the supernatural? Of whom do you speak Jon?
    There is nothing more supernatural in the world today than the revealed word of God.
    It is complete, finalized and confirmed by Jesus Christ and those who heard Him.

    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
    2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.

    Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.
    2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
    3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
    4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

    The writer to the Hebrews was more concerned about what was "spoken by the Lord" than signs and wonders.

    Was confirmed: Why do you or anyone else - believers or otherwise need signs, wonders, miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit since that confirmation spoken of in Hebrews exists and is codified in the word of God?

    The proclamation of the forgiveness of sins and eternal life through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is our 2oth century supernatural message of salvation apart from works, signs, wonders, etc...

    HankD
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Maybe this will clarify (I'll look at the rest after church as I think we have much where we would agree).

    1 Corinthians 14:20-25
    20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.
    21 In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
    22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
    23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
    24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
    25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Well Jon IMO this epistle was written while the church was still in its adolescents after the Day of Pentecost without the full confirmation of "those who heard Him" else Paul would not be writing to them.

    But I suppose God who is omni-everything has the power to do whatsoever pleases Him.
    I am not convinced that "signs" have gone on into perpetuity of the church.

    My belief is that the sign gifts were as the book of Hebrews presents them as having been confirmed and there for not longer needed although the date given to Hebrews authorship is before 70AD.

    How long? perhaps throughout the life of John (who heard Him), possibly around 100 AD when the final prophecy (Revelation) completed the Bible.

    But still, I respect your take on the sign gifts as a possibility in the 21st century.

    HankD
     
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