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Featured How much influence does God have in salvation?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by canadyjd, Mar 7, 2019.

  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Pastor_Bob. I would like to ask again if you believe God uses the same amount of influence to bring people to salvation or does He use a different amount of influence on different people?

    I'm not trying to trick you with the question. I'm trying to understand the freewill position.

    It makes no sense to me to say God is able to bring everyone He wants to salvation, but that He will withhold the necessary influence that will bring someone to salvation based on His desire we get there of our own freewill, knowing the person is unable to get there of their own freewill.

    I'm sure that could have been stated a little clearer, but I hope you understand the point. I look forward to your answer.
     
  2. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    I think he understands it just fine.
    I have a perfect understanding of the free will position, having been raised in it for over 25 years, and I don't see him asking anything untoward or misunderstanding in any way.

    I agree.
    Scripture also says that all know that God exists, because He put that knowledge into every person:

    " For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
    ( Romans 1:18-20 )

    Based on what Scriptures?
    I see it being sent to where God's elect are already residing:

    " Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
    10 for I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city
    ." ( Acts of the Apostles 18:9-10 )

    My replies in the body of your quoted text immediately above.

    The first chapter of Romans states man's default position before God, and why God is angry with us to the extent that His wrath is revealed from Heaven against us.
    The tenth chapter of Romans is written to those who have already believed, and has nothing to do with how to "get saved", but what characteristics a person who is saved will exhibit, and how that person has been enabled to believe.

    A preacher is sent, and the Gospel is delivered.
    But not all have believed the preacher's report ( Romans 10:16 ).
    Faith comes by "hearing", and "hearing" by the word of God ( Romans 10:17 ).

    Spiritual hearing is reserved for those who have eyes to "see" and ears to "hear", which not all men have.

    " He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." ( Matthew 13:11 )
    " for this people’s heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    16
    But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." ( Matthew 13:15-16 )

    " When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."
    ( Matthew 16:13-17 )

    It takes the power of God's Spirit to reveal Himself to someone through the Gospel, and God does not reveal Himself to everyone... which is one of the reasons not all people believe the Gospel when it is preached ( Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22 ).

    It is read and understood ( granted, much differently than you seem to read and understand it ), which is why the questions are being asked, in my opinion.
     
    #22 Dave Gilbert, Mar 8, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
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  3. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    because we are condemned already, This is a place to hold the condemned and who else needs saving?
     
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    How much influence does God have in salvation?

    Hmm, to me this is like asking "How much influence did God have in creation?"
     
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  5. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

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    Hmm. I didn't get that from the first chapter of Genesis or Matthew. Interesting interpretation.
     
  6. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    It is not in those chapters but they support the position.
     
  7. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    The entire narrative and purpose is to save sinners
     
  8. Ran the Man

    Ran the Man Active Member

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    The idea that the material is evil is from Gnostisism. God said all He created was good.
     
  9. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    He did not say morally good but good according to His design for redemption.
    The physical world was not evil but it is cursed now because of sin.
    The physical world does not sin, spiritual beings sin
    Gnosticism fits the same way as Humanism, Declaring one bad is the same as saying the other is good both are lies of the devil meant to deceive
     
  10. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

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    So, the chapters give one set of reasons but support another set of reasons?

    Very interesting.
     
  11. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Verse suport verse, should they contradict other verses?
     
  12. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

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    They can easily contradict other verses when taken out of context. So, in context, the reason for God creating humans should be in the first chapter where he created them.
     
  13. Ran the Man

    Ran the Man Active Member

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    God is redeeming our earth. We can't just say it's corrupt and it's all lost, otherwise the devil wins.
    We are coming back here. Earth is our home. Any eschatology that doesn't put us back doing as we did before the Fall makes God a loser.
     
  14. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    The reason for God creating mankind is for His glory:

    " for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" ( Colossians 1:16 )

    " For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. " ( Hebrews 2:10 )



    But I do agree with your statement above, that it should be in the first chapter of Genesis, which it is:

    " And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." ( Genesis 1:31 ).


    May God bless you, good sir.
     
  15. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

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    Like usual, you emphasize the parts you like and ignore the parts you don't like. And you also are speaking past me to some other person instead of to me.

    Colossians 1:15-20

    Nowhere does it say humans were made for his glory - only that it was made for him.

    Hebrews 2:5-10

    Once again - not there.

    This is the part you skipped over.

    Genesis 1:26-28

    The purpose of our creation is very clear. No need for a degree in ancient languages to decipher it. God even repeats himself and says it twice so that there should be no doubt.

    You obviously hated Rev. Mitchell so much that you refused to publicly pray for him and bless him. Why do you hate Rev. Mitchell so much?

    * edited to replace scriptures with links to scripture.
     
    #35 MartyF, Mar 10, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  16. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    In truth, I ignore none of it, as all of God's words are equally important to me ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ), and I see many people ignoring or downplaying, all the time, what God has to say about His choosing people to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Psalms 65:4 ).

    With respect, the same could be said of you, sir.
    You appear to emphasize man's choice with regard to salvation, when the choice has already been made ( and continues to be made in our hearts ) against Him ( Romans 1:32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ), and you don't appear to see the significance of statements that Jesus has made showing that God is selective with regard to who He reveals Himself to.

    The whole thing was made for his glory, and that includes believers:

    " I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
    7 [even] every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
    ( Isaiah 43:7 )

    All of Christ's sheep were made by God, afore prepared unto glory:

    " and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
    ( Romans 9:23-24 )

    I have no degree in ancient languages, and nothing to flaunt in the face of men who seek esteem from each other.
    But I do believe that I have a very good understanding of Scripture, because God, in His grace has given it to me...not because I went to a "bible college" or have stacks of commentaries around my desk like many I have seen.
    All I needed to do was do what the Lord, through Paul, told Timothy to do:

    " Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness."
    ( 2 Timothy 2:15-16 ).

    All of Christ's sheep have the ability to understand Scripture for themselves, because they have the Holy Spirit as Teacher ( Isaiah 54:13, John 6:45, 1 John 2:20-27 ).
    Therefore, everyone that professes Christ, except for false teachers and tares, should eventually be able to arrive at the same understanding of Scripture ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ) , given enough time in the word.

    I don't hate him.

    I just happen to think that he doesn't understand the Scriptures, and that he's teaching them wrong, especially with regard to salvation.
    He appears to think that man has to cooperate to gain God's favor.
    I am completely from the opposite direction.

    Furthermore, as a former "Fundamental Baptist" for over 25 years, I know exactly what he preaches...
    That belief on Jesus Christ is what actually saves a person, not that the person believes because he is one of Christ's sheep ( John 10:26 ) and that a person comes to Christ in belief and true faith because it is given by the Father for them to do so ( John 6:37-44, John 6:64-65, John 17:2, Philippians 1:29 ).
    From my perspective, he has the cart before the horse.


    In truth, I hate no man in the judgmental sense, but I do hate false teaching.
    I also hate anything that gives man an ounce of credit for something that is clearly the gift of God...eternal life.

    To me, you misunderstand my standing against what he ( and perhaps others ) teaches, as personal hatred for him.
    I have no such personal animosity towards Mark Mitchell...rather, it is my sincere desire that God show him what He has shown me:

    That salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    If you see me once call Mark a disparaging name, or treat anyone that speaks against what I believe harshly, then you have my permission to call me on it and to remind me of the Lord's commands regarding personal conduct towards others.
    But there's a big difference, at least to me, with being firmly against something, and speaking evil of men.

    I will say this about the subject:

    Every time he ( or anyone else on this forum ) puts forth the idea that man can contribute to God's work of salvation, I am going to disagree with it and in some cases even straightly denounce it.
    Similar to him calling "Calvinism" evil ( which I have seen him do in recent months ), I call "Semi-Pelagianism" / "Traditionalism" and anything associated with it, a fuzzy, wuzzy God-loves-everyone gospel that pleases the masses; It couldn't be much further from the truth of the Bible than full-on five-point modern-day Wesleyan "Arminianism".


    To be clear:
    I believe what some call, "TULIP" because I see it in Scripture, and because it abases men and exalts God as highly as possible... and I didn't come to it lightly.
    I'm not "Reformed", and I'm not a follower of John Calvin in any sense of the term.


    I hope that helps to explain my position, sir.;)

    May God bless each and everyone of you with the knowledge of Him and His grace.:)
     
    #36 Dave Gilbert, Mar 10, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
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  17. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Nope, the story is about redemption, He does tell us, though
     
  18. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    He is glorified by saving sinners

    Good is not morally good but good for God's purpose of redemption
     
  19. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    That's one of the ways He is glorified, I agree.

    But he is also glorified when believers see His justice and judgment, because He will come to be glorified for saving us ( 2 Thessalonians 1:10 ), and eventually all will glorify Him, saved and unsaved ( Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:9-11 ).

    Anything God does is righteous, though we as men may not see some things as "good".
     
    #39 Dave Gilbert, Mar 10, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  20. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Obviously, God can do whatever it is He wants to do. The only thing God cannot do is anything that is contrary to His nature. For instance, God cannot sin or create a rock so big that He could not lift it.

    As a Calvinist, I believe that only those appointed unto eternal life will believe (Acts 13:48). Ergo, if there is any "influence", it is the Holy Spirit working on behalf of the Elect. God always acts with a purpose. He never does anything in vain or without cause. Our Lord told Nicodemus in John 3:8, "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” We do not know how the Holy Spirit works, only that He does work on behalf of those who are to inherit eternal life.
     
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