Thank you Gerhard. It takes humility to admit mistakes. Look at what you wrote
You place Peter's second trip somewhere near #2 AFTER the women report to the eleven yet the Angels show up on the third visit to the tomb by the women in #5
The essence of this is, there is not a trip by women to the tomb where angels never appear and you have been busy reconstructing one up there in #2.
Was there really an 'angel-less' trip to the tomb by the women?
Why would women who have just seen an empty tomb, been told that Jesus is resurrected by Angels make another trip to the tomb armed with spices again a few hours later?
Read Wenham again. I had a copy but once my house flooded and the book was destroyed. I wept bitterly but the seeds of harmony had been sown.
<<<How nonsensical can it get?>>>
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jun 29, 2015.
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Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Here is my synopsis . . .
Luke 24:10
It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna
Ehsan de heh Magdalehneh Maria kai Iohanna
and Mary of James and other women with them
kai Maria heh Iakohbou kai hai loipai sun autais
which told these things unto the disciples.
elegon pros tous apostolous tauta.
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And their words seemed to them as
Kai ephanehsan enohpion autohn hohsei
idle tales, and they believed them not.
lehpos ta rehmata tauta, kai ehpistoun autais. [Cf. Mark 16:8.]
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7. Peter has another look
Luke 24:24
And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre
Kai apehlthon tines tohn sun hehmin epi ta mnehmeion
and found it even so as the women had said:
kai heuron houtohs kathohs kai hai gunaikes eipon:
but him they saw not.
auton de ouk eidon.
24:12
Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre;
Ho de Petros anastas edramen epi to mnehmeion
and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves,
kai parakupsas blepei ta othonia keimena mona,
and departed, wondering in himself
Kai apehlthen pros auton heauthaumadzohn
at that which was come to pass.
to gegonos.
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8. Women return to “see again”
Mark 16:2
And very early in the morning the First Day of the week
Kai lian proh-i tehi Miai tohn sabbatohn
they came upon the sepulchre
erchontai epi to mnehma
at the rising of the sun.
anateilantos tou hehliou.
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And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away
Kai elegon pros heautas, Tis apokulisei hehmin ·
I think, Vooks, it is your identifying the visit in Luke 24 before Peter went the second time to the tomb, with the visit in Mark 16:2-8, the visit the women made and they all had left again except Mary who had stood after at the grave which causes the confusion.
The times GIVEN for each of the women's visits, clarifies everything.
All the women went together (three of them) "carrying their spices prepared and ready" to anoint the body THEY THOUGHT WAS STILL THERE in Luke 24, "orthrou batheohs" which is right after midnight morning.
These women returned and told the men where they were all together. (Not where Mary told Peter and John only of the stone.)
In Luke the women are told by the angles Jesus had raised / was raised / rose / is resurrected.
They go and tell and "astonish" the men where they were all together in the City.
Peter goes to the grave at this stage, by himself and returns puzzled as ever.
"Very early before sunrise", 3, 4, 5 a.m.? Mark 16:2-8 the women "check / measure up again" (the 'ana-' Verbs) everything they already had seen. The angel sternly rebukes the women for not believing and they flee from the tomb and keep total silence.
But Mary had had stood after at the sepulchre in John 20:11!
But once you’ve identified Mark’s <trip> with Luke’s <trip>, you’re lost! Not even Peter’s <trip> can make sense or fit in anywhere.
I'm sure that is where you are making the mistake, Vooks. -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Ah, thank you Vooks, I have now seen where I indeed made a mistake. I was wrong when I described Peter's second <trip> TO the tomb as slow and while meditating. In fact I contradicted Luke and myself. I completely missed this. His return <trip> though was slow and while he wondered about the angels and the women's news of the risen Jesus.
Next time I'll be more careful to improvise on what "IS WRITTEN"! -
One thing at a time.
The harmony attempts end up being a hopeless exercise when you have two competing attempts. That's why I have been asking for yours. Let's continue looking at it -
Is your mistake in describing Peter?
I have no problem whatsoever with that. My question was on your claim of an angel-less visit to the tomb by women in #2. Do you still insist that the women in your #2 had not seen Angels? -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
<<<The essence of this is, there is not a trip by women to the tomb where angels never appear and you have been busy reconstructing one up there in #2.>>>
Yes, where more than one woman—Mary Magdalene included—visited the tomb and actually went into the tomb there were angels or was an angel:
Luke 24—two angels outside surprising the women as they came out of the tomb; and Mark 16—one angel “at the right”—carefully observed inside “sitting” on an already familiar place.
And where Mary by herself having “had had stood after / stayed behind”, “at the tomb and stooped over and peeped inside and spoke to them. There were two angels inside the tomb sitting where the body was laid down.
Where at last the women came to the tomb while Mary was no longer among them because the Lord already had appeared to her early on the First Day of the week, an “angel explained to them and told that Jesus was resurrected, and they for joy ran to tell his disciples, Jesus met them, while the angel must have felt great for the honour he received to be the messenger of Glad Tidings.
But where it was Mary on her own who “comes UNTO the tomb” viz. “is on her way to the tomb, sees the stone cast away, runs back”, no angels are seen or mentioned.
Also where Peter and John ran to the tomb, and after several hours Peter again hastened to the tomb, no angels are mentioned because no angels were there.
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Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Next <trip> was Peter and John’s—no angels near.
Next thing Mary did, was a few hours later , when she and the other Mary—“the two women and others with them—, made another trip to the tomb armed with spices>>>
You asked, Vooks, <<<Why would women who have just seen an empty tomb, been told that Jesus is resurrected by Angels make another trip to the tomb armed with spices again a few hours later?>>>
Well, you have also answered your own question, Vooks! It isn’t possible they could just have seen an empty tomb, and been told that Jesus is resurrected by Angels. That’s why the women make their first trip collectively. It was <<another trip>> for Mary Magdalene, yes—, but for the whole group, Luke 24:1-3 was their first trip to the tomb. The women made this <trip> because Mary must have told them that she saw the tomb was opened somehow she KNEW NOT. Therefore the body should be in the tomb still; how would anyone know it wasn’t there still? So let’s go and see for ourselves! And off they went, <<armed with spices>> to anoint the body they were convinced was in the tomb still— opened or not opened, Mary! How would you know Mary, if it’s not in the tomb, still?! And Mary eagerly would agree with the others, wouldn’t she?
I would have posted my Wenham for you if I haven’t just two weeks ago given all my books to the University. But Wenham holds to the single visit at the tomb and Resurrection together explanation--- the most futile method to understanding the so-called “Easter Enigmas”.
Ja, the theory is as old as Tradition itself … and as falling short of comprehensibility as . . . who knows what . . . I have read Wenham and studied it at least a dozen times over, and couldn’t catch its drift, what understand its genealogical detail and other stuff everything and anything but the PLAIN SCRIPTURES!
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Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
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Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
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Gerhard,
You are digressing and avoiding my question for reasons known best to yourself;
You said
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Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
<#2> was an <<angel-less visit to the tomb>> by "Mary Magdalene" on her own, who "comes unto / approaches / nears (Singular) the tomb, sees (Singular) the stone ... runs (Singular) back".
Where do you read in my <#2> --Mary's approach to the tomb when it still was dusk-- of another woman?
I have all the way <insisted> Mary acted alone. -
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Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Please know that I gave TWO sets of visits.
There is the synopsis of the (bare) Scriptures titled "TEN visits at the tomb"--- the comprehensive one, which includes all mentions of human activity at the tomb, that of the males as well. (Not only the women's visits.) The long list includes all the women's visits whether collectively or Mary's two alone visits in <#4> and <#9>(the first appearance). Men are not in the 'CONDENSED' list at all.
In the "CONDENSED" list, I give the women's visits only.
In this list Luke 24:1-3 is <#2>, but in the synopsis Luke 24:1-3 is <#6>.
I did not include Peter's second and alone visit in the CONDENSED list. But you will find it in <#7> in the Ten Visits synoptic list.
I hope this clarifies the difficulty you have encountered as follows, <<<...somewhere near #2 AFTER the women report to the eleven yet the Angels show up on the third visit to the tomb by the women in #5>>>. -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Luke 24 was the women's first collective visit and Mary Magdalene's second, realised, <trip> to the tomb and her first entry into the tomb.
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I believe you should work on your communication. What is clear to you is hodgepodge to everyone.
I had asked for a brief chronology of the visits to the tomb. Something like this;
1. Mary Magdalene visits the tomb alone and returns to tell of a missing body to Peter and John
2. Peter and John dash to the tomb and find it empty
3. Some women visit the tomb and finding it empty they return and share this with the 11
4. Mary Magdalene returns.....and gets Josephus and Clement and a female angel tells them Jesus rose last week......
Kindly do this WITHOUT Greek or verses. Just a simple narrative. You will fill us in on the details as we move on -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
I shall have to compromise as follows . . .
<<<1. Mary Magdalene visits the tomb alone and returns to tell of a missing body to Peter and John>>>
That is your story, not John’s. Instead the truth is just what IS written in John 20:1-3.
Now until you can QUOTE verbatim in John 20:1-3 <<Mary Magdalene visits the tomb>>, I can’t oblige.
And until you can QUOTE verbatim from John 20:1-3 <<Mary Magdalene returns to tell of a missing body>>, how can I believe you?!
Ek’s nie onder ’n hoender uitgebroei nie.
I told you before your acting the clown is dismal.
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Your narrative would be a starting point. My example was just what I have in mind NOT my harmonization. I could have said Elijah and Samson visited the tomb. So stop making meat out of it.....
Get us your brief narrative. No verses, no Greek -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
I am also not able to improve on the two <harmonizations> I have placed in this discussion, the synopsis of the 4 Gospels and the women's visits condensed from the synopsis. The synopsis is COMPLETE and contains every word and verse in all the Gospels at the relevant <verses>.
It is yours, Vooks, against the Scriptures' OWN <harmonization>. And they CLASH!
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Why won't you do that?
From your narrative, we can examine scriptures to see if it adds up. But when you start pasting a mishmash hodgepodge that makes sense ONLY to yourself, nobody can question it. Not because it is accurate but because it is easier to decipher hieroglyphics that your posts.
As it is, your posts don't make sense to ANYBODY here
You will substantiate as we proceed. It is a statement of your belief.
The only reason you are on this forum is because you imagine you have something WORTH sharing with the world. You are not communicating anything as it were.
So once again, START with a brief statement of your harmonization. Unless of course you don't believe it can stand scrutiny. It only makes sense to you , your alters,your imaginary debaters and of course your poor wife! -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Buy buy, Josheb!!!!!
PS
Luckily I didn't send you Wenham
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