I was recently directed to this article from the Gospel Coalition. I thought it was helpful, though I'm sure it has some things people may take issue with. For the non-cals, it can at least show what one Cal thinks is a way to approach this.
How to Call for a Gospel Response Like a Calvinist
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 12strings, Dec 1, 2011.
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this prof thought Calvinism makes sense biblically and logically, but not practically.Click to expand...
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mandym said: ↑If that is true it discredits the entire system.Click to expand...
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InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Thanks for posting the article. Though I'm not a Calvinist it is good to understand where they are coming from.
Calvinists pray for unbelievers to respond to the call.
Is there a point in praying for people to respond to the gospel if the number of those who will respond is fixed in God's plan from eternity?
Paul seems to think so: "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved" (Rom. 10:1).
Does it shock you that Paul prays for Israel's salvation in his most extensive section on God's sovereignty in election?Click to expand...
Acts 26
27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe.”
28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”
29 And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains.”
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The article instructed, "Pray that God would save people through the inherent power of the gospel."
Why? What is there to the idea that we are morally obligated to do so? Is it only for the sake of obedience that we should pray? -
Where do we go from here? This discussion boils down to three ways Calvinists ought to proclaim the gospel:
Explicitly call the unregenerate to believe in the gospel.
Trust that the Holy Spirit will do the work to make that call effective in the elect.
Pray that God would save people through the inherent power of the gospel.
More than just being practical, Calvinism contains the power for calling sinners to respond to the gospel in faith.Click to expand... -
InTheLight said: ↑The answer to the question is no. Because Paul doesn't think God elects only certain people.
Acts 26
27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe.”
28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”
29 And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains.”
Click to expand... -
12strings said: ↑does this verse teach that paul fully expected all who heard him would respond, or only that he desired it to be so?Click to expand...
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webdog said: ↑Nothing here is different than what I believe, so it is not calvinism that contains the power, it is the Gospel. The fact that it has been stated calvinism has any kind of power reeks of piety and arrogance.Click to expand...
Even Spurgeon once said "Calvinism is the Gospel" Which I now think was not a very wise thing to say, but it has been quoted too often by calvinists seeking to make a point. Was Spurgeon arrogant to say this, or simply unwise? maybe both. -
humblethinker said: ↑The article instructed, "Pray that God would save people through the inherent power of the gospel."
Why? What is there to the idea that we are morally obligated to do so? Is it only for the sake of obedience that we should pray?Click to expand... -
webdog said: ↑Does it matter? Why would he desire for something if it were unexpectant?Click to expand...
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12strings said: ↑I desire lots of things that I don't expect to actually happen.Click to expand...
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webdog said: ↑Pertaining to spiritual matters? Is God not powerful enough?Click to expand...
Yes, God is powerful enough. Yes, we should pray expecting God to answer, but realizing his plan may be different than ours.
I'm simply saying that in this case, all Paul says is he "would" that all who hear would be like him. I take that to mean he desires it. Does he also expect it to happen...esp. to ALL? He doesn't say. I would think Paul is a realist to know that some who hear would respond, and some would not. -
12strings said: ↑Even Spurgeon once said "Calvinism is the Gospel" Which I now think was not a very wise thing to say, but it has been quoted too often by calvinists seeking to make a point.Click to expand...
Ascol cited a statement by British Baptist preacher Charles Haddon Spurgeon, “Calvinism is the Gospel.” While Spurgeon’s other preaching made clear he did not equate the five points of Calvinism with the Gospel itself, Ascol said, “And though I would have never said it that way either, [in the past] I would have been content to just throw it in the face of people who didn’t agree with Calvinism and let them grapple with it. But now I want to be more gracious about that.”
Ascol credited spiritual growth—“God exposing pride in me”—and friendships with “good, godly men” for his change in attitude.Click to expand... -
The Archangel Well-Known MemberInTheLight said: ↑Thanks for posting the article. Though I'm not a Calvinist it is good to understand where they are coming from.
The answer to the question is no. Because Paul doesn't think God elects only certain people.
Acts 26
27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe.”
28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”
29 And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains.”
Click to expand...
webdog said: ↑Does it matter? Why would he desire for something if it were unexpectant?Click to expand...
So, in the text, we see Paul preaching indiscriminately (not just to persons he might consider "elect"). He is hoping the people are converted through his preaching of the Gospel. But, it is clear he doesn't expect that to happen.
The Archangel -
12strings said: ↑We are told to pray to the Lord of the Harvest to send out laborors...Surely God knows where laborors are needed, yet he tells us to pray, and later in scriptures says that such prayers are "effectual" and "avail much."Click to expand...
In what way would prayers be effectual and avail much besides a "just because the Bible says so" answer? Are they "effectual" and "avail much" in making a difference in that "God would save people through the inherent power of the gospel"? -
The Archangel said: ↑As 12strings pointed out, your understanding of this verse is incorrect. Paul does not expect all in his hearing to be converted, though he does wish that it would happen.
It matters greatly because of the text. The word translated "would" is in the optative mood. In Greek the optative is not dealing with fact or actual occurrence. Rather, it is the mood of "wishing," for lack of a better term.
So, in the text, we see Paul preaching indiscriminately (not just to persons he might consider "elect"). He is hoping the people are converted through his preaching of the Gospel. But, it is clear he doesn't expect that to happen.
The ArchangelClick to expand... -
The Archangel Well-Known Memberwebdog said: ↑where do you get Paul didn't expect it to happen?Click to expand...
webdog said: ↑Why would he desire something if there was no chance of it happening, or more importantly that would be in opposition to God's desire?Click to expand...
I said Paul wishes the persons hearing him would believe. But he doesn't expect that they all will.
More to the point I was making--Paul does not preach only to the elect. He preaches to everyone. This is not proof that Paul didn't believe in election as InTheLight stated.
webdog said: ↑I don't desire to fly by flapping my arms because I know its not possible. I also do not desire to win a million dollars via the lottery as its impossible since I don't play the lottery.Click to expand...
However, Paul both desired (wished) that the persons be converted (mostly Agrippa) and took the action of preaching the Gospel to him (and those in his court). But, he didn't expect here--nor anywhere else in the New Testament that I'm aware of--that preaching the Gospel would, ipso facto, bring conversions. In fact, Paul was well acquainted with preaching the Gospel where not everyone was converted.
Again, though, the issue is the text and its use of the optative mood.
The Archangel -
humblethinker said: ↑That answer sounds like you are agreeing that it is only for the sake of obedience.
In what way would prayers be effectual and avail much besides a "just because the Bible says so" answer? Are they "effectual" and "avail much" in making a difference in that "God would save people through the inherent power of the gospel"?Click to expand...
I don't really know how it works. God says he has a plan, and it "cannot be thrwarted" (a good word for any occasion, btw). God also says, "you have not because you ask not." Does that mean, "even if you don't ask, I'm going to give anyway cuz I have a plan."? I don't think so. [It doesn't mean the opposite of what it says!] This verse says there are things I don't have because I don't ask.
Jesus said to pray to the Lord of harvest that he would send laborors. How do my prayers for the advance of the Gospel, which God says are "effective" and "avail much" rolled up into the sovereignty of God, who said "I will build my church"? I don't know. -
That is how one preaching professor taught his students to call people to faith in a sermon. He couldn't reconcile a theological system that embraces God's sovereignty in salvation with a plea for sinful people to change. Ultimately, this prof thought Calvinism makes sense biblically and logically, but not practically.Click to expand...
Perhaps you have struggled with this, too. I know I have.
There was a season of my ministry where I didn't call people to believe the gospel. I preached the gospel, of course, but only with the hope that the Spirit would use his word to regenerate spiritually dead teenagers against their will. I merely implied that they must believe the gospel.Click to expand...
But I have turned from this mindset. This is not because my pendulum has swung to a more balanced position between Calvinism and Arminianism---I don't believe there is such a thing. It's because I've grown to understand what Calvinism is and, perhaps more importantly, what it isn't.Click to expand...
It is Calvinistic to call people to respond with faith in the gospel.Click to expand...
Eschewing theological labels for a moment, it is biblical and Christian to call people to believe in the gospel. This is, after all, how Jesus began his ministry: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:14-15). You don't have to know Greek to recognize the imperatives.Click to expand...
But we Calvinists love to quote Ephesians 2:8. "Faith is a gift from God!" we exclaim. "It doesn't originate in the person!"Click to expand...
The question is: When non-Christians do repent and believe the gospel, do they express faith in Christ? Or does God grant the gift of faith in Christ to men? Yes! Why? Scripture teaches that faith in Christ includes both an objective and a subjective aspect. This is not a contradiction. Rather, the two must be held in tension.Click to expand...
Objectively speaking, faith is a gift from God (Eph. 2:8, although the "gift" is the whole work of salvation, not just the faith). Subjectively speaking, the person exercises faith in the gospel (Eph. 1:13). This is why Paul thanks God (the objective side) for the Ephesians' faith in the Lord (the subjective side; Eph. 1:15-16).
Since faith is both objective and subjective, we are right, as Calvinists, to call unbelievers to put their faith in Jesus.
Hyper-Calvinists inappropriately overemphasize the objective aspect of faith. Therefore, they have a hard time calling people to put their trust in Jesus. Arminians, on the other hand, inappropriately overemphasize the subjective aspect of faith, as ultimately the responsibility of the individual.Click to expand...
For example, last year my best friend called and invited me to a Super Bowl party at his house. He told me there would be all sorts of food and drink (non-alcoholic) and many other friends from church. I accepted his invitation.
Now do you think I walked in and told my friend how lucky he was I came to his party, and that he should be thanking me for eating his free food and watching the game on his big screen TV?
Now really, isn't that the silliest thing in the world? Nobody in their right mind would do such a thing in real practical life. In real practical life you would thank your friend for being so kind to invite you to his party, and you would bring along something to show your appreciation, which is exactly what I did.
So, Calvinism presents a very unrealistic and illogical argument. Any person who realizes they are a sinner and worthy of death is not going to have this kind of attitude. They are going to be thankful and appreciative to God for sending his Son to die for our sins and calling us with his gospel.
Calvinism, and more importantly the Bible, appropriately emphasizes both, which is why we can (must!) call unbelievers to put their faith in Christ, and mean it.Click to expand...
Calvinists believe there is power in the call to respond.Click to expand...
And Calvinists NEVER believe the call is powerful toward the non-elect. This is illogical as well, as God does not speak meaningless idle words.
Someone might respond, "Okay, faith is objective and subjective. But if the person hasn't been regenerated, the call to faith falls on spiritually deaf ears, and therefore will necessarily be ineffective."Click to expand...
But this response fails to recognize that the power for a person to change lies not in their current spiritual condition. The power lies within the preached Word through the work of the Holy Spirit. "The gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16).Click to expand...
The Word is what works the change: Jesus told the paralytic to get up. God told the light to show up. Jesus told Lazarus to come out.Click to expand...
Jn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
By God's grace, his Word, proclaimed by sinful people, contains the power to change hearts.Click to expand...
Calvinists pray for unbelievers to respond to the call.
Is there a point in praying for people to respond to the gospel if the number of those who will respond is fixed in God's plan from eternity?
Paul seems to think so: "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved" (Rom. 10:1). Who is Paul praying for? Israel, who seeks to establish a righteousness of their own through the works of the law (Rom. 9:31; 10:3) rather than by faith in Christ.Click to expand...
Does it shock you that Paul prays for Israel's salvation in his most extensive section on God's sovereignty in election? Perhaps a prayer like this sounds Arminian to you. Perhaps it sounds like the future is open for the souls we preach to, and that they have not been predestined one way or the other.Click to expand...
But to pray for someone to be saved is thoroughly Calvinistic. Why? Every prayer for God to save someone is at least an implicit confession that they can't respond to the gospel in their own power, whether or not we explicitly acknowledge this to be the case. When you pray for God to save someone, you say, "God, you must do the work to save this person, because otherwise, they won't turn to you."Click to expand...
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