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Hydroplate Theory

Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by church mouse guy, Jun 30, 2017.

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  1. Rev20

    Rev20 New Member

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    The passage says nothing about the "kingdom coming" to earth. Only that his "will" be done on earth as it is in heaven.

    That is a novel interpretation. I see it only as a staging area for troops, and have found nothing about a battle of Armageddon. Historically, Titus used the area near Cesaera to stage his troups before heading to Jerusalem:

    "WHEN therefore Titus had marched over that desert which lies between Egypt and Syria, in the manner forementioned, he came to Cesarea, having resolved to set his forces in order at that place, before he began the war.[Flavius Josephus, "The Complete Works: Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1934, Bk V.1.1, Rev 16:16, p.1398]

    Cesaera was about 10 miles from Meggido.

    The scripture says Jesus was the Lord over heaven and earth prior to his ascension. Who do I believe? You, or Jesus?

    I am still waiting for scriptural evidence of an earthly reign of Christ. If anyone can ever present such evidence, then I have to resolve this issue:

    "The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." -- Ps 103:19 KJV

    "The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven:" -- Ps 11:4 KJV

    The Revelation seems to say that someone else, besides Jesus, rules the nations with a rod of iron. Read carefully:

    "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father . . . After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter . . . And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed [overcome] to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." -- Rev 2:26-27, 4:1, 5:5 KJV

    As you can see from the time context, the Lamb of Rev 5 is not likely to be Jesus, unless Jesus waited decades to present himself before the throne as a slain lamb. The Lamb is the one who opens the seals and, most likely, the one who later rules the nations with a rod of iron. The throne of Jesus (the Father) is forever in heaven, according to the prophets.

    Yea, I guess you could . . .

    Rev
     
  2. dad1

    dad1 Member

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    My opinion at the moment of the fountains was that in the former nature, the consistency of rock was different, allowing a passage of water from the inner earth to the surface. I also lean toward the idea that most of the water came from the other side of the universe through wormhole sort of windows. So the fountains of the deep are not a major issue. Walt Brown had to give them a major role because he needed to explain all things using present state laws. I don't have to do that.

    I also am not certain whether some craters like the one in the Yucatan are craters from bottom to top impacted areas (fountains of the seep remnants) or craters from impacts from above. (or some combination).
     
  3. dad1

    dad1 Member

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    His kingdom is now in heaven. He went to His Father in His kingdom. When the King returns the kingdom comes too.


    Jesus starts out apparently over around Basra and ends up in the valley of Armageddon. He fights that battle alone.

    Do the Saints or the 144


    There comes a time, after He returns to earth, that the kingdoms of this world become part of the kingdom.

    Re 11:15 - And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms ofthis world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    That is future.


     
  4. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    If Peleg was 105 years old, that means that he probably lived at the time of the Tower of Babel. If the ark landed in the mountains of Ararat, that means that the mountains were formed when the continents were formed.

    Genesis 8:4 (KJV) And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
     
  5. dad1

    dad1 Member

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    No. Of course there were mountains pre flood. The waters covered them if you recall. No one says they were the high mountains of today.

    Manetho apparently recorded that the tower of Babel was 5 years after the birth of Peleg.

    In the Days of Peleg


    I always wondered at what point in his life the nature change occurred. If this is true, then it would have likely been when he was 5 years old!
     
    #85 dad1, Feb 2, 2018
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  6. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Your source does not support you on the continents. It clearly states that the continents present location occurred during the flood. It then quotes Ussher as saying that Peleg was born one hundred years after the flood.
     
  7. dad1

    dad1 Member

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    Right, I would not expect them to have a clue. There are many who think that the separation of the continents is included in the things that were divided in Peleg's day though.

    If the nature was different, then we would not have the great heat so a rapid move was very possible then. Not now.
     
  8. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I don't understand what you mean by great heat. What do you think caused the continents to form as they are now? So are you saying that the continents moved about 100 to 200 years after the flood? Does anyone else have that opinion?
     
  9. dad1

    dad1 Member

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    Yes, probably. As for heat, friction is a problem for massive bodies of land moving fast, it would generate heat. There was a lot of heat and volcanoes and molten rock, but if the move was at the time when laws were changing, the final phase was probably in this nature. Hence, a lot of heat would be generated, as we see in the hot spots and etc. Heat that is till there, and science thinks comes from the interior of the planet.

    Actually, even the oceans of water falling from windows of heaven is claimed to be a real heat problem, with the friction caused by the falling water. Having the flood happen in the former nature eliminates that problem also. Where did the waters go? The speculation of how a lot of water receded (possibly even taken off the earth) really makes little sense in this nature either. Having trees growing a week after the waters went down also makes sense in the former nature...not this one. Which fixes the problem of how the animals had food to eat after the flood. The separation of the spiritual dimension from the physical also makes sense if there was a nature change. At the tower of Babel, they actually thought angels of spirits or heaven was not very high up. We do not see that now. The change in nature also may have been how God affected the change in the language of men. No longer did man process information in his brain the same apparently. The life spans drop exponentially also in the time of Peleg. No one born after Pelegs day lived the long lives that those born before did. Noah lived I think it was 350 years after the flood. But that would only be (depending on the interpreted date we use for the birth of Peleg) something like 244 years after the time Babel happens (apparently probably when Peleg was 5 years old)..

    Looking at the bible, we do see that a lot of the basics did change. That change can be pinpointed to the days of Peleg.
     
    #89 dad1, Feb 5, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  10. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I am still lost. Why would heat cause plates to move? What scientists believe this? Where does Scripture say that physical laws changed at the time of the flood?

    A more logical explanation of what it means about Peleg and the division of the earth is found in the next chapter. (It has nothing to do with the break up of the continent from the time of Noah.)

    Genesis 11:9 (KJV) Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
     
  11. dad1

    dad1 Member

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    The sort of issues I hear raised usually are like the following..

    "
    [​IMG]
    If some single land mass were to break up and then the bits (Africa, Eurasia, North and South America, Australia, and Antarctica) go slamming across the globe like billiard balls, there are consequences. One of them being the heat necessarily generated by friction between the crustal rock, and the upper mantle. This is given in the "Coefficient of Friction" seen above. Were did this heat go? Because it would have been enough to have melted the crust, and boiled the oceans into steam. And, we can calculate an estimate of the energy needed to push up mountains all over the world as continents crash together. If this were to have occurred rapidly, again the heat generated would have melted the mountains, and not forced them into the air. (For public lectures have the audience rub their hands together for friction heating, and clap them together for impact heating).

    If you free inertia by reducing the friction between the mantle and the crust so that they can move quickly without melting, then when you slam them together mountains splash into space- ridiculous."

    Stones and Bones: Dismissing "catastrophic plate tectonics"

    A different nature in the past would allow the fast movement without the heat problem. Modern laws apparently do not.

    Not at all. I do not see angels renting conos and marrying women on earth now? The division probably included much more than language. But the confusing of language also was probably related to the new nature.
    True, He did that. Probably part of that was sending them abroad on now moving continents also!
     
  12. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Okay. What caused the continents to form as they are today?
     
  13. dad1

    dad1 Member

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    God.
     
  14. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Where in Scripture does it say thst God caused the continents to form after the flood?
     
  15. dad1

    dad1 Member

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    Where does it say during??! Where does it say before? Now if the dividing of people on continents and the continents themselves happened in the days when the earth was divided...well, we know when that was.

    Where does the bible say the millions of species we have today were all on the ark? Nowhere. So the animal kinds on the ark had to evolve fast to make what we see today, only 4500 years later. The animals also had to get around the world, and having continents with animals on them move apart fits the evidence. The pushed up high mountains also need to be explained after the flood, because having water cover Everest is basically silly. The life span changes were after the flood. The changes in man's ability to communicate and process language was also after the flood. Why they thought a spiritual level existed in a certain area needs to be explained, when clearly there is none now in this present world and nature. How the animals ate after the flood needs explaining.

    Basically Genesis cannot be explained using the present nature. Nor can the Millennium or new earth.
     
  16. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I recognize that yours is an established position, although I think that it is a minority view, Your source said that Plate Tectonics was done for the money but I doubt that that can be proven since most of the money goes to millions and millions of years types and evolution types, who think that they are intellectual. At any rate, your source made mostly an ad hominin attack, as you probably agree.

    Here is what Puritan Matthew Henry says about Peleg: "The reason of the name of Peleg (v. 25): Because in his days (that is, about the time of his birth, when his name was given him), was the earth divided among the children of men that were to inhabit it; either when Noah divided it by an orderly distribution of it, as Joshua divided the land of Canaan by lot, or when, upon their refusal to comply with that division, God, in justice, divided them by the confusion of tongues: whichsoever of these was the occasion, pious Heber saw cause to perpetuate the remembrance of it in the name of his son; and justly may our sons be called by the same name, for in our days, in another sense, is the earth, the church, most wretchedly divided."

    Plate Tectonics is based upon science and the verse that says that the earth was established on the deep. Genesis 1:9 (KJV) And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so. So there were vast oceans of water under the land, and at the time of the flood, these waters burst forth, the fountains of the deep. Only so much rain can fall in forty days and forty nights, so most of the flood came from the fountains of the deep shooting water high into the air tens of thousands of feet, which then fell as the deluge that not only destroyed all life but also ripped open great seams in the earth and plates of land began to move.

    Plate Tectonics is not necessarily a Creationist idea but also is mainstream geology. So first Adam and Eve were forever expelled from the Garden of Eden, and then Noah's pleasant earth of one continent with low mountains and relatively small inland seas and lakes was destroyed. The continent broke up and reformed briefly as one rearranged continent called Pangaea, which then broke up into today's seven continents.

    Now you bring up species, to my surprise, because Scripture only talks about kinds. And, no, 4500 years is more than long enough for the current panoply of species to evolve because most animals have short lives.

    Then you bring up the question of animal distribution. Here again you deny that there was an Ice Age after the flood but since there was an Ice Age then, the ice would be a mile thick or more and that would take enough water out of the ocean to lower the sea level 600 feet. This would provide many land bridges between the continents. Plus all the debris left from the flood would have made natural rafts for both humans and animals even if you say that the Tower of Babel, probably a mere ziggurat, built to show defiance at the order to break up and move to all seven continents, was a 100 years or so after the flood. It might take a long time for all of the debris to clear out of the waters by the natural processes of decay.

    As for the mountains, it is not necessary to repeat that they were formed when the seven continents, moving at a rapid speed, hit an immovable object. Most mountains tend to be along coastlines if you look at a topographical map.

    If you were to see photographs of the Ark Encounter in Kentucky, you would see that it is the size of an ocean liner. There was plenty of room on there for provisions for the animals who were herbivorous for quite some time. Also, the plants must have come back on their own to some extent because the Dove brought Noah an olive branch. Perhaps the carnivorous animals retained herbivorous capabilities temporarily.

    The earth was destroyed during the flood. Man was thus allowed to eat animals because conditions for agriculture must have been degraded after the flood. Noah's world was better before the flood but sin had led to this destruction and the earth had to rapidly accept the tens of thousands of corpses of very sinful human beings plus all of the plant and animal life on the globe. Such an upheaval affected every square inch of earth and was almost more catastrophic than the human mind can comprehend. It was so horrible that God set the rainbow in the sky as His promise that never again would there be a global flood. Still the earth is evil and so it must be destroyed by fire at the end of time. Soon and very soon.
     
  17. dad1

    dad1 Member

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    Never read it all. Axs fpr plate tectonics there is something to that. However where the heat comes from, and how fast and why the move is another issue.

    Silence shows us continents were divided. I think Matt was around before this knowledge? So we need to know when this happened...at creation...the flood, the pre flood, post flood? You need a reason to exclude the continent division from the division that happened in Peleg's day.


    Claiming it happened in the year of the flood would take some evidence also.

    Total speculation.


    It was not rain as we think of rain that flooded the earth, but water from above the firmament (where the stars were placed in) that came to earth via windows of heaven. The models of the water mostly coming from below are purely an attempt to explain the flood in natural, modern nature terms.


    Interesting story.

    You need support to claim what the earth broke up and reformed pre flood! Why? Proof?
    The created kinds adapted and evolved a lot.
    You should consider knowing what you are talking about before debating.
    I am not talking about animals after the recent ice age. I am talking about after the flood. The flood was possibly somewhere near the KT layer. No matter what way you look at it that was nowhere near the ice age.

    To explain the fossil record, you would need to pretend the flood created most of it, and that is frankly ridiculous.
    So you claim migrations around the planet all are due to rafting basically. Good luck with that.

    I agree. Now the issue is when and how fast, and in what nature.
    You realize there are over 30 species of tigers? Over 2000 species of rodents? 8 species of leopards? 8 species of bears? 3 species of elephants? (then there were the mammoths etc). 700 species of dinos? 10,500 species of birds? etc etc etc.

    Yes animals mostly ate herbs at that time, so where did all the herbs come from in the area of Ararat in a few weeks? With trees growing in weeks and fast growing plants being part of the different former nature this is no problem. Now, it is impossible.
     
  18. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, I think that you theory flies in the face of too many facts. In all this time, you have only produced one person to refute Hydroplate theory (to use Brown's term) and that was an Orange County anthropologist, who made personal attacks against YECs that didn't agree with him. And then he linked a white paper from Los Alamos that showed the opposite opinion but he never was able to refute the white paper. Plate Tectonics has answers and people who stand for YEC are not making any money. One does not make any money in science and one does not make any money in science when you advocate a minority position representing one percent of the people in the field. One has critics in the Ivy League and one has critics in the church and one has critics within the YEC community.
     
  19. dad1

    dad1 Member

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    Having a same nature in the past is not a fact. You cannot explain Genesis using the current nature at all in a way using the present state laws. Having people try to do so with lame old wives tales and poor science is embarrassing.

    Plate tectonics is not just abut plates. It includes the big bang old age earth origins and inner earth theories, as well as a uniform nature. You cannot claim you use the theory when you claim that the continents moved in the flood.

    The Hydroplate theory cannot be defended. It is just an early attempt by a man to try and explain the flood events using a belief in a same nature/state/laws in the past. It was a noble attempt, but basically it got dashed to smithereens long ago.

    Clinging to a same state past is what science does, and making the same mistake they do on a far lower budget is not a winning strategy.
     
  20. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    You have presented no evidence other than your own personal statements. Hydroplate therapy, or plate tectonics, is highly scientific. It has nothing to do with big bang or evolution and you have no evidence to link them. Actually, Creation Science pioneered in linking plate trctonics to Noah's Flood and the Ice Age. Now other geologists are beginning to agree.
     
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