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Featured I am neither C vs A

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Salty, Oct 27, 2022.

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  1. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    I have heard many say that! AKA - "I don't like labels
    There is nothing wrong with labels.
    Keep in mind - there are 5 points:
    1) Total Depravity
    2) Unconditional Election
    3) Limited atonement
    4) Irresistible grace
    5) Perseverance of the Saints

    So which side are you on?
    Please give a quick thought on each item.
    Link for the 5 points

    Guess what - Catholics as well as other religions say that
     
  2. MrW

    MrW Member

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    Catholics claim tradition is equally important as the Bible so they cannot make that claim.

    In fact, they honor tradition and “continuing revelation” from popes above Scripture. What they believe about Mary l, for example, stems from “ex cathedra” papal decrees, not from the Bible at all.

    I believe what I read in the Bible, and I see where one can misunderstand Scripture and get little parts of C, but no way what they have transmogrified it into.
     
  3. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    I agree with the quoted statement - but they still believe in the Bible.
    Now if you had stated "Only the Bible..." that would be different!

    But I am still curious where you stand on the five doctrines in the OP!
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I hold to neither position.

    I do believe in the depravity of man, but Christ overcomes this. Man does not turn to God apart from the work of the Spirit.

    I do not believe in conditional or unconditional election. I believe the "elect" is synonymous with the Bride. But we are not saved for any merit in ourselves.

    I do believe that Christ died as a ransom for all men and to save those who believe.

    I believe God is resisted by men, but that His will is going to be accomplished.

    I believe that those who are in Christ will be saved.
     
  5. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I think the TULIP acronym causes more harm than good. Calvinists seem to explain each of the letters differently. Many Calvinists certainly don't or didn't preach like they follow it. Guys like Edwards and even Calvin wrote things that make you wonder if they even believed the "L". And it's too late to go back and clarify it with them. Spurgeon said he was a Calvinist and also said he was saved as an Arminian, and preached as an Arminian. My first exposure to Spurgeon was when I asked my fundamentalist preacher who that bearded guy was on the front page of "Sword of the Lord", whose popular preachers were at the time calling Calvinism the "wine and cheese" philosophy. Somewhere I have R.C. Sproul's little book lying around and if I remember right he himself changed 3 of the letters to better suit him so I know he didn't like the acronym either. Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones said that Calvinism without some Methodism tended to become intellectual and lifeless and he seemed to want to be called a Calvinistic Methodist. It's no wonder we're all confused.
     
  6. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Since not a C or A this is my take on TULIP

    1] Total depravity Is man a sinner YES can man turn and trust in God YES. We are told in Genesis 3:22 that man can know good and evil. If this were not so then why the conviction by the Holy Spirit, why the gospel?

    2] Unconditional Election I do not see this taught in the bible. What I see is that we are saved because we trust in Christ Jesus

    3) Limited atonement Christ died to be a ransom for all us ungodly sinners so as to save those that believe in Him.

    4) Irresistible grace To me this is an oxymoron. Grace is something that is freely given to not forced upon someone.

    5) Perseverance of the Saints Those that believe in Christ will be saved
     
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  7. MrW

    MrW Member

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    I do believe only the Holy Bible for my belief system concerning God’s revelation of Himself, of sin, salvation, righteousness, prophecy, endtimes—everything the Bible addresses. The KJB is my authority. I do look at a couple of other translations on difficult passages, and if they shine some light on the KJB passage, I appreciate that. If I see a conflict, I stay with my AV.

    Creation itself reveals some things. The vastness of the heavens show me God is taller than the stars. Flowers show me He loves beauty. Trees and fruits, vegetables, water, etc., show me He is a provider of man’s every need, but again, Scripture alone spells it out, affirms it, and details it.

    Unlike the Calvinist claim of “Scripture alone”, I do believe Scripture alone for my knowledge and belief of all it addresses.

    I don’t believe TULIP, as I have seen it written out. For one example, Total Depravity is actually written out as Total Inability, which is error, for the power to believe and be saved is right there in the Gospel of Jesus Christ itself, “…for it is the power of God unto salvation…”, Romans 1:16, a little verse we all should hold dear in our hearts.

    I have shown in a prior post the I is false. I may address the others later, opportunity presenting itself.
     
  8. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    1] Total depravity -
    *Jeremiah 17:9*
    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
    Humanity is corrupted in every part of it's nature. There is not one spot where the corruption of sin is not found.

    2] Unconditional Election -
    *Ephesians 1:3-4*
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
    The Eternal God and Creator of all things does as He wills without consultation or correction with or from man.
    There is no condition required in order for God to choose to redeem anyone since God knew us before we were ever born.
    *Jeremiah 1:5*
    “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

    3) Limited atonement -
    *Matthew 1:21*
    She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
    *John 10:11*
    I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
    *John 17:9*
    I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

    Jesus did not waste even one drop of blood on those who would not believe.

    4) Irresistible grace -
    *Luke 10:21-22*
    In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

    "Whenever God pleases, he overcomes your resistance. He can let you resist him as long as he wants, but when he decides, he triumphs."
    ~ John Piper

    5) Perseverance of the Saints -
    *Ecclesiastes 3:14*
    I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.
    *Isaiah 46:3-4*
    “Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all the remnant of the house of Israel, who have been borne by me from before your birth, carried from the womb; even to your old age I am he, and to gray hairs I will carry you. I have made, and I will bear; I will carry and will save.
    *Philippians 1:6*
    And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

    God purposes in His heart to complete that which He started and thus we who are His children will persevere in faith to the point of our glorification in the presence of God.
     
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  9. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    To me totally depraved means we can do no good. It does not mean we can not see our depraved heart and realise we need a savior.. so which I believe we are depraved (can do not good) I do not believe we can not respond to Gods calling and gift
    Unconditional election I believe states God did not chose based on what he saw. I disagree,

    I believe the omniscience of God. in looking forward. chose based on his foreknowledge of who would see and believe (john 6) and he chose to save them,
    God died for the world. Not just the elect. this is a false teaching..
    Grace is resistible. we have seen it from the beginning of time after the fall. where God has offered his grace. and people have rejected it..
    The saints do not persevere. this would be leading towards a works based gospel as worded.. that they will "persevere to the end" this is not scripture. Saints do not persevere. they are kept By Christ.
     
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  10. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Eternally Grateful,
    I am eternally grateful for your concise replies!
     
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  11. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I am C.A. (Classical Arminiam, only 4 points and 1 of the 4 is the same as Calvinism.)
    When you boil it down, they are real close.
     
  12. MrW

    MrW Member

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    My reply: The saints don't persevere--they are kept by the power of God unto eternal life. Please open a search engine and search "Evanescent Grace, John Calvin" and see what he said. Also consider Calvinism says you MAY NOT be one of the elect, therefore you cannot be sure of your salvation. I AM SURE because of John 3:16 and so I have much greater assurance than what is available under Calvinism or Reformed Theology, that I will never be lost.

    The Protestants came out of Catholicism, but they did not come out far enough.
     
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  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I shared scripture. We persevere because we are kept by Christ. These are not two opposing thoughts, but instead are juxtaposed thoughts.
    Perhaps you think saints can be like sacks of potatoes that do nothing, yet God keeps them. I see a God whose work enables us and indeed moves us to persevere in life and faith.
     
  14. MrW

    MrW Member

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    If I could not SAVE myself then I cannot KEEP myself saved.

    I gladly give God all the glory.
     
  15. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Semantics - IMHO
     
  16. MrW

    MrW Member

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    No, it’s truth. I believed, God saved me by the merits of Christ, through the new birth.

    Having been born again, I am a new creation, changed, and cannot be unborn, cannot have any desire to be lost again. “Kept by the power of God, through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.” 1 Peter 1:5.
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The passage says not a thing about being Elected.
     
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  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Sure it does. You simply refuse to accept that chose and elect are the same thing.
    "He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world."
    Deny it if you wish. It doesn't change what God has declared.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is total falsehood.

    Unless you can understand the reason I believe what I believe, how are you to convince me that the understanding I have for the distinction between the choice God made before the foundation of the world is to be understood to be the same as the election?

    Repeating your believed tenet doesn't show.me God's choice before the foundation of the world is the election.
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    We have gone over this already. You simply refuse to accept what the text says.
    "He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world."
     
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