I Corinthians 1:7 shows that gifts continue

[Link]

This verse is strong evidence that Paul believed that the gifts would continue until the Lord returns.


I Corinthian 1:7
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

One should keep this verse in mind, and the fact that Paul talks about the resurrection that would occur at the Lord's return at the end of the epistle when interpreting the meaning of 'that which is perfect' in I Corinthians 13.

There is no evidence that Paul envisioned an age without spiritual gifts between the deaths of the first century apostles and the coming of the Lord. Paul's teaching on spiritual gifts in I Corinthians 12 are therefore still valid.

 

[DHK]

The last prayer of the Bible is John praying for the Lord to come.
Jesus admonishes us to watch and pray for the coming of the Lord.
Paul does the same. He will come as a thief in the night. Be prepared. His coming is imminent. It is soon. It could happen at any moment. It could have happened in the time of the Apostle John, or Polycarp, or Luther, or Wesley, or Moody, or anytime now. The basic truth of the latter part of 1Cor.1:7 is simply that the Lord Jesus Chris is coming. It doesn't say when. Nor does it say that gifts will continue until that time.
It makes a statement of fact: All the spiritual gifts were made available to the Corinthian Church. They came behind in no gift.
Secondly, they were to wait until the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. How does the one connect with the other? It doesn't.
DHK

 

[Link]

If Paul expected that the Lord would come back during a time when the Corinthians had these spiritual gifts that he wrote about in the epistle, then it makes no sense to argue that Paul believed a period of time before the Lord came back when the gifts were unavailable.

So trying to argue that 'that which is perfect' was something that would come before the Lord returns and make the gifts cease does not fit with I Corinthians 1:7.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Link:
If Paul expected that the Lord would come back during a time when the Corinthians had these spiritual gifts that he wrote about in the epistle, then it makes no sense to argue that Paul believed a period of time before the Lord came back when the gifts were unavailable.

So trying to argue that 'that which is perfect' was something that would come before the Lord returns and make the gifts cease does not fit with I Corinthians 1:7.

You are not being logical.
Paul is not God.
He could not know and would not even hazard a guess at the time or the season of the Lord's coming since Christ told us not to.
Nor did he know the exact time when the gifts of the spirit would cease since he died before that time came.
If I am given a command "Pastor this church until the Lord comes." Does that mean I will be the pastor here right up until the time that the Lord comes again. That could be another thousand years!! (I hope not, but it is a possibility). That is the kind of sense you are making. The two parts of the statement have no relation in time.
DHK

 

[D28guy]

Link,

"If Paul expected that the Lord would come back during a time when the Corinthians had these spiritual gifts that he wrote about in the epistle, then it makes no sense to argue that Paul believed a period of time before the Lord came back when the gifts were unavailable.

So trying to argue that 'that which is perfect' was something that would come before the Lord returns and make the gifts cease does not fit with I Corinthians 1:7."

Of course, you are 100% correct. There is abundant evidence that the gifts will continue. Not only scripturally, but historically as well.

The gifts have never ceased. The scriptures teach so, and its been documented historically.

And of course, the gifts are in abundance today during this great end time revival we are experiencing.

Praise God! \o/

God bless,

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

In a statement found in Paul's letter to the Corinthian church, which shows that the popular conception of the temporary continuance of the gifts cannot be correct. It is his contrast between the present, imperfect state, and the glorious, immortal condition to which the Christian will finally arrive. 1 Corinthians 13. He says (verses 9, 10). "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." He further illustrates this present state by comparing it to the period of childhood with its weakness and immaturity of thought and action; and the perfect state, to the condition of manhood with its clearer vision, maturity, and strength. And he classes the gifts among those things which are needed in this present, imperfect condition, but which we shall have no occasion for when the perfect state is come. "Now," he says (verse 12), "we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." Then he states what graces are adapted to the eternal state, and will there exist, namely, faith, hope, and charity, or love, "these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

This explains the language of verse 8: "Charity never faileth;" that is, charity, the heavenly grace of love, will endure forever; it is the crowning glory of man's future, immortal condition; but "whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;" that is, the time will come when prophecies will be no longer needed, and the gift of prophecy, as one of the helps in the church, will no longer be exercised; "whether there be tongues, they shall cease;" that is, the gift of tongues will no longer be of service; "whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away;" that is, knowledge, not in the abstract, but as one of the special gifts of the Spirit, will be rendered unnecessary by the perfect knowledge with which we shall be endowed in the eternal world.

 

[donnA]

Paul believed Jesus would return in his lifetime.

 

[Link]

Originally posted by DHK:
Paul is not God.
He could not know and would not even hazard a guess at the time or the season of the Lord's coming since Christ told us not to.
Nor did he know the exact time when the gifts of the spirit would cease since he died before that time came.
If I am given a command "Pastor this church until the Lord comes." Does that mean I will be the pastor here right up until the time that the Lord comes again. That could be another thousand years!! (I hope not, but it is a possibility). That is the kind of sense you are making. The two parts of the statement have no relation in time.
DHK [/qb]

Based on what I have read from you from the past, wouldn't you conclude that:

1. Paul believed certain of the gifts would cease at the giving of scripture some time before the Lord's return?

and that,

2. Certain events would occur that would be signs to the Jews that would lead to the ceasing of these gifts before the Lord's return?


I Corinthians 1:7 argues against both of your interpretations. We see that Paul expected the spiritual gifts to continue until the Lord returns.

 

[J. Jump]

If you want to read a good explanation of what signs, wonders and miracles are and why in fact they are not in existence today follow this link:

http://lampbroadcast.org/PDFperiodicals/ND04.pdf

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Yep...

Then why do we pray for the sick when the doctors give up on them... And, by what means do they recover?

Oh, that's right Baptists don't Anoint with Oil or call for the Elders...

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Gift is The Holy Spirit... The Nine So-Called Gifts are Manifestations of His Activities in the Church...

If the Manifestations are gone, ceased, then how do you propose to prove to me your doctrine is Biblical when such things can only be Spiritually Discerned and you can't prove the Spirit is Among You?

Now, if you've followed my posts you know that I allow for you Baptists to have the Spirit of God without Speaking in Tongues...

Isn't that nice of me!

But, I also state pretty emphatically that the nine manifestation are a package deal...

If the Holy Spirit is among you you will have one of more manifestations of His Presence...

Else, where do your professor and scholars get the intuitive leaps (word of wisdom word of knowledge) by which their doctrines are preseved?

Or, do you *really* believe these mere men are all that brilliant?

If the 'gifts' have ceased so must have needs be the Holy Spirit's Presence among us...

Mike Sr.

 

[music4Him]

I was at a Baptist church and I noticed they didn't have any oil to pray over a sick person... so I offered them the bottle of anoiting oil that I carry in my bible. They used it and had no quams about it. Oh and yes the person recovered.
Just trying to be a doer of the word and if it says lay hands on the sick cast out devils ect... shouldn't we?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Link:

Based on what I have read from you from the past, wouldn't you conclude that:

1. Paul believed certain of the gifts would cease at the giving of scripture some time before the Lord's return?

and that,

2. Certain events would occur that would be signs to the Jews that would lead to the ceasing of these gifts before the Lord's return?


I Corinthians 1:7 argues against both of your interpretations. We see that Paul expected the spiritual gifts to continue until the Lord returns.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The only statement that verse 7 is making in relation to spiritual gifts is that the Corinthian church "came behind in no gift." That is, within the church they were blessed to have all the gifts, which is not true of all churches. That is all that the first part of the verse says, and it is totally unrelated to the other parts of that passage
What else does the passage say:
They are to wait for the coming for Christ.
Christ will confirm them to the end.
They will be blameless in the Day of Christ.

And one can go on reading in the rest of the passage about what Christ will do for the believer. This has nothing to do with the time of when the Spiritual gifts will cease, nothing whatsoever. One might argue that the day of Christ and the coming of Christ are two different events, or that confirming them "to the end" is yet a different time period. Who says that all these events are speaking of all the same event? the same time period? It certainly doesn't suggest that the Spiritual gifts will last until the rapture, the second advent, the Millennial Kingdom (beginning or end), or througout eternity (the end). It doesn't say anything like that. It gives no time reference at all. That is all in your imagination. It is eisigesis--reading into the Scripture whatever you want the Scripture to say.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
Yep...

Then why do we pray for the sick when the doctors give up on them... And, by what means do they recover?

Oh, that's right Baptists don't Anoint with Oil or call for the Elders...

And you get this information from where??
Perhaps it reveals that your knowledge of Baptist churches is shallow.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Just who are you calling unsaved? That is quite an allegation. That is what "the natural man" refers to.

The Gift is The Holy Spirit... The Nine So-Called Gifts are Manifestations of His Activities in the Church...

If the Manifestations are gone, ceased, then how do you propose to prove to me your doctrine is Biblical when such things can only be Spiritually Discerned and you can't prove the Spirit is Among You?

The Holy Spirit came to dwell in me, as in every believer at the time I got saved. He indwells each believer. As the children's song goes:
"Jesus loves me this I know,
For the Bible tells me so."

It does not say:
Jesus loves me this I know,
Because I have spoken in tongues, etc.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
--The Spirit of God bears witness with my spirit that I am His child. And that is without any experience that results from the gifts of the Spirit. Does the Spirit of God bear witness with your Spirit that you are a child of God? How?

The gifts of the Spirit have ceased. The Holy Spirit is still here. The fruit of the Spirit ought to be displayed in each believer. We are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit. But the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased by the end of the first century.

Now, if you've followed my posts you know that I allow for you Baptists to have the Spirit of God without Speaking in Tongues...
Isn't that nice of me!

You have nothing to do with it. The Bible teaches they ended at the first century. What goes on today in the name of tongues is a complete forgery, fraud, a sham and a disgrace to Biblical Christianity. If tongues were truly Biblical today, then no Charismatic (or any other) missionary would ever have to learn a foreign language before going to the foreign field. God would just give them the gift of tongues instead. But it doesn't work that way. In fact it never works that way, because the gift of tongues has ceased. Tongues were always real national languages, always spoken in public, always spoken for the edification of the entire church.

But, I also state pretty emphatically that the nine manifestation are a package deal...

Does that include the "gift" of healing as demonstrated by Peter in Acts 5:16 where all the people that were sick came from all the cities around about Jerusalem came to Peter and he healed ALL of them, everyone. Which faithhealer today do you know can do that? Does anyone. Of course we know the answer. NO. The fact is that not only the gift of healing is not for today, but none of the gifts are for today, and there is no demonstrable proof ever offered that they are in effect for today.

If the Holy Spirit is among you you will have one of more manifestations of His Presence...

That is a false statement, and illogical.
If Satan or any of his demons are near you then will we see more manifestations of his power? Will your computer start levitating off of your table? Will your furniture begin to move effortlessly around your room without human help?

Else, where do your professor and scholars get the intuitive leaps (word of wisdom word of knowledge) by which their doctrines are preseved?

Doctrine is preserved in the Word of God, the Scriptures which we call the Bible. It is not mystical and does not come from mystical experiences called Word of wisdom or word of knowledge. Such experiences lead to heresies. The Bible is our final authority in all areas of faith and doctrine. Running your life on emotional experiences is one of the most dangerous things that you can do. It is playing with the devil.

Or, do you *really* believe these mere men are all that brilliant?

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
--Contrary to the verse you quoted (2:14), I know that I have the Spirit of God dwelling in me, and thus He illuminates my mind to the truth of the Word of God. It is the Bible that is our final authority, not tongues or any other such experience.

If the 'gifts' have ceased so must have needs be the Holy Spirit's Presence among us...
Mike Sr.

Why? You must have a very poor view of God, if your God is simply confined to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. My God is bigger than the gifts. The Gifts ceased at the end of the first century, but my God lives on and will forever. He is a great God, who never changes. He is immutable. He is the same: yesterday, today and forever. The gifts may change. God himself promised that they would cease. I believe they already have. Since you have tied God's very power and existence to the gifts, then your God is very limited indeed.
I praise God for the great and mighty God that I serve. He is able to do the miraculous without being bound to the gifts.
DHK

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I really did need a tongue-in-cheek smilie for the jibe about not calling for the elders...

It definately colored your reading of the rest of my post...

Sorry about that...

As for our differences concerning the Manifestations of the Holy Spirit...

You can be angry and state over and over again that the Gifts have Ceased...

It doesn't change my Faith that they haven't...

You haven't given me one irrefutable proof that your interpretation is the only valid reading of any of the texts you have given.

In fact I and several others on this forum have provided ample rendering of alternate readings that are every bit (and more) as plausible as yours..

You accuse me of having a 'very poor view' of God. That my view is confined to only the Gifts of the Holy Spirit...

Huh?

The Holy Spirit is God...

And, the Gifts aren't the only things I have talked about on this forum as you very well know...

I would say that it is your view of God which is limited to only Natural Occurances and Events...

Not, mine...

DHK, respectfully, it is 'your' view of God which is too small... Not mine...

It is your view which limits Him, not mine...

Mike Sr.

 

[Briguy]

Link, don't forget what I have posted before about Tongues. I won't go into it again but it CLERALY says that Tongues will fade away on their own. Paul could not have made this statement if he did not feel this gift would end before the return of Christ. He was sure it would because He knew that the scriptures said that Isreal had to be judged and scattered and that Tongues was the sign that pointed to that event, and, that Tongues would quietly fade away after that judgement (which happened in 70AD). Tongues faded away as the Tongue speakers died because the Gift was no longer given, after 70AD.

You are just reading too much into 1 Cor. 1:7 Paul was just simply making a statement to encourage the church before he started to tell them what they were doing wrong. It is like a supervisor pointing out a couple of good things about your job performance before he touches on all the bad things.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[music4Him]

Brian said:
Tongues faded away as the Tongue speakers died because the Gift was no longer given, after 70AD.

So you saying the Spirit stopped giving all the gifts? (1 Cor. 12) Too late! I got some of them gifts. So if you say it is not the Spirit because He quit in 70 AD. Then how come when the bible was written, was it even put in there? Too much evidence to point to the gifts belonging to us, all we have to do is recive them.

I still have trouble understanding the 70 AD theroy and where you find it in the bible to try and exsplaine away the gifts of the Spirit.
Care to put the scriptures up on the proof of the 70 AD theroy?

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Originally posted by music4Him:
Brian said:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Tongues faded away as the Tongue speakers died because the Gift was no longer given, after 70AD.

So you saying the Spirit stopped giving all the gifts? (1 Cor. 12) Too late! I got some of them gifts. So if you say it is not the Spirit because He quit in 70 AD. Then how come when the bible was written, was it even put in there? ...

...Care to put the scriptures up on the proof of the 70 AD theroy?

</font>[/QUOTE]Nice catch! Music4Him

 

[music4Him]

Yep Mike... I liable to catch it alright!

Me and Brian and DHK have been arond this mountian for a couple of years.

 

[Briguy]

I only said Tongues faded away as there is clear scriptual teacing on that gift. I did not feel like I needed to discuss any other gifts and whether they are in opreation. I was using tongues to de-bunk the earlier argument. M4H, many things in the Bible were gone when it was compiled but are in the Bible for lesson reasons. Think about The Law and circumcission for a couple examples. Anyway, I have only advocated that the "sign gifts" have passed away for sure. Tongues, interpretation of tongues, Healing, and Miracles. As for the others, the jury in my brain is still out. I know you are thinking it is never in. I see good arguments on both sides. So, in conclusion nobody "caught" me at all

In Christ,
Brian

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Still not convinced.

I think it is a valid question if the Gifts were on the way out anyway why bother to include the "How To Use" them in the Letter to the Corinthians instead why not say that, 'you children in faith don't you know that these are going bye bye and you should be seeking other pursuits'?

But, Paul didn't say that He said that when that which is perfect is come...

Can anyone dare tell me that *anything* on this earth today is "perfect"?

There isn't...

Even the revered KJV of the Bible has it's critics...

The Law and Circumcism was done away with by a New and better Covenant of which The Nine Manifestations of the Holy Spirit are a part of...

Can you really divide the Holy Spirit up and say that only part of His Manifestations are available today?

I thought it was the Spirit that distributed the gifts as He willed?

We may define them away but Miracles still happen... Either by gathered elders prayer or by a Child of the King laying on hands and praying...

It is still the Holy Spirit that does the work...

I don't suppose you've read "Like A Mighty Wind"?

I did a web search on the East Timor Revival and found a few interesting items:

http://www.eaec.org/bookstore/books/like_a_mighty_wind.htm

http://www.apts.edu/ajps/01-2/01-2-gwiyono.pdf

http://www.sendrevival.com/testimonies/categories/deadraised/article_email_richard.htm

Of course after so long a time it is hard to verify much on the internet...

Of course, seeing I am so biased, the Healings I have seen with my own eyes won't be offered.

Or, that fact that I am alive today is due to a miracle...

SMM