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I got tired of bumping this...

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by trying2understand, Nov 18, 2003.

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  1. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    ...so I thought I would start a new thread in the hopes that Bob Ryan would address this.

    Bob, you previously said that it is not required of you to accept Ms. White's words as inspired.

    Please explain that in light of the following.

    From sda.org under the area of beliefs:

    "17. The Gift of Prophecy:
    One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)"

    From sda.org under the area of offical statements:

    "As Seventh-day Adventists, we believe that "in His Word God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience" (The Great Controversy, p 7). We consider the biblical canon closed. However, we also believe, as did Ellen G White's contemporaries, that her writings carry divine authority , both for godly living and for doctrine . "

    I bolded the portions that are most interesting to me.
     
    #1 trying2understand, Nov 18, 2003
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hint: Give it a title that will let Bob know he should come here and answer something.

    They make "what clear"???

    They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)"

    Hmmmm Now "maybe" that is why the SDA manual says that acceptance of Ellen White is "not" a test of membership.

    But like - the divinely inspired non-canonical prophets of 1Cor 14 ---
    However, we also believe,     as did Ellen G White's contemporaries, that her writings carry divine authority , both for godly living and for doctrine . "

    So is there a question left for me here?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #2 BobRyan, Nov 18, 2003
  3. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Bob, can an SDA believe that Ms White's writings are not divinely inspired authority for doctrine?
     
    #3 trying2understand, Nov 19, 2003
  4. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Bob, can an SDA believe that Ms White's writings are not a divinely inspired authority for doctrine and therefore on par with Scripture?
     
    #4 trying2understand, Nov 19, 2003
  5. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Trying,

    If an SDA did not believe that her writings were inspired and on par with Scripture, then why would they remain an SDA? It is clear that anyone who is willingly a part of the SDA movement believes in what Ellen G. White teaches and its authority; anything else would be foolhardy.

    Further, it is clear from what is quoted by the organization that they believe her words to be on par with Scripture, as long as they are "tested" against Scripture. Thus, as long as she does not contradict (according to her/their own interpretations), her work carries divine authority.
     
    #5 GraceSaves, Nov 19, 2003
  6. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    But Bob Ryan said that SDA's are not required to believe that White's writings are inspired and on par with Scripture.

    That seems to be in conflict with the statments which I have cited from SDA.org

    No, my understanding is that SDA believe that her visions are revelations from God and that her writings are inspired and are divine authority for doctrine.

    I am waiting for Bob to explain the contradiction between his statement that an SDA does not have to accept White as a prophet and the statements made at SDA.org.
     
    #6 trying2understand, Nov 19, 2003
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Yes. And many in Europe (and a number in the US) believe exactly that. As the church manual states - it is not a test of fellowship.

    However the denomination has still voted (and continues to vote each quinquinium) that they believe her 1Cor 12 spiritual gift is that of prophecy.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Nov 19, 2003
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Well... hmmmm lets think really hard here and see if we can figure that out.

    Oh .. wait! I have it! See Bob? See Bob Post? See Bob not-use Ellen-White-quotes for his "proof"?? Hmmm maybe there are one or two "just like that" using the Bible alone to make their doctrinal case and paying attention to "the details"!

    yep! That's it!.

    Nice going!

    Just "pay attention to the details" of what has been said here, of what is actually in the 27 FB and of what is in the Church manual - and you will at least "know the facts". You can always disagree with why we do what we do - but should "at least" know what the facts are.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #8 BobRyan, Nov 19, 2003
  9. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    "However, we also believe, as did Ellen G White's contemporaries, that her writings carry divine authority , both for godly living and for doctrine . "

    Am I to take it then that the other faith statements on SDA.org are also optional?

    SDA's vote on doctrine?

    But the vote isn't binding?

    What's the point to it?

    How do you know what you should or should not believe in order to be SDA?
     
    #9 trying2understand, Nov 19, 2003
  10. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    27 FB ??? Is that some sort of government form? IRS? INS? Social Security, maybe? Give us a clue.

    What difference does it make what your church manual says? Are you required to comply with it? Why comply with a manual when you are not obliged to comply with your church's voted on faith statements?
     
    #10 trying2understand, Nov 19, 2003
  11. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    BTW, Bob, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out why the SDA.org website says that certain things are "beliefs" of the SDA and certain things are "offical statements" of the SDA, but no one in the SDA church has to agree with them?

    Why publish some thing as a belief of offical position of the SDA on the SDA website if it really isn't so?
     
    #11 trying2understand, Nov 19, 2003
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The church meets every 5 years to vote on and affirm the official statment of 27 beliefs. That set of beliefs are studied with and reviewed with each person before joining the church. The web site is correctly reporting the results of that vote. It shows the official statement of beliefs of this denomination. Everyone who joins our church is given that list knowing what the church believes.

    The fact is -- if person says they accept the 1Cor 12 doctrine on spiritual gifts but do not accept that Ellen White had an instance of the gift of prophecy mentioned in 1Cor 12 -- that person is still allowed membership into the church.

    Ellen White herself insisted that accepting that point should not be a test of fellowship -- and it is not.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #12 BobRyan, Nov 19, 2003
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    27 FB ??? Is that some sort of government form? IRS? INS? Social Security, maybe? Give us a clue.

    </font>[/QUOTE]27 Fundamental Beliefs.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #13 BobRyan, Nov 19, 2003
  14. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Why don't the SDA websites say this?

    Did the SDA vote on this too?

    How about some documentation?
     
    #14 trying2understand, Nov 19, 2003
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Are you wanting a copy of the church manual?

    Are you asking for a quote from Ellen White?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Nov 19, 2003
  16. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    No.

    I want to know why none of the SDA websites that I have seen, say what you say.
     
    #16 trying2understand, Nov 19, 2003
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    No.

    I want to know why none of the SDA websites that I have seen, say what you say.     </font>[/QUOTE]Do you want an SDA web site with the church manual on it for you to read this for yourself??

    Do you think the SDAs are "tricking you" into making your assumptions?

    Do you think your research on SDAs so far has really been that "exhaustive" or "objective" in the sources you are using?

    What are you claiming.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, Nov 19, 2003
  18. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Let me narrow it down for you.

    Why doesn't SDA.org, which would appear to be an offical SDA website, say what you say?
     
    #18 trying2understand, Nov 19, 2003
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm. Maybe because it is not an exhaustive compendium on everything that is "not a test of fellowship"..

    Hmmm. Maybe because it makes not effort to document what IS a test of fellowship - much less the infinite variety of what is NOT a test.

    But after spending about 10 minutes to see what might be available OUTSIDE a library or book store - so that you can have it now - on the web...

    In found this EGW not a test of Fellowship

    You might want to go there to add to your "exhaustive" research.

    Anything "else"?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Nov 19, 2003
  20. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    In part from your source:

    "The doctrinal statement concerning the Spirit of Prophecy remained virtually unchanged, from 1931 (when it was first formulated) until the GC Session of 1980, when it was amended to make more prominent the reference to EGW's name, linking her to the prophetic gift within the SDA Church."

    And we also find:

    "Belief in Ellen White's gift of prophetic utterance still remains, very strongly, a "teaching" of the church; and we affirm most vigorously that it should continue to be taught within the church affirmatively, with diligence and vigor.

    c. But, though a teaching, it never has been-nor is it now-a "test" of fellowship in our church. "


    So, it's a "doctrine" and a "teaching" but not a "test".

    In other words, it's a doctrine and a teaching, but you don't have to believe it? :rolleyes:


    Sounds like double-speak and spin are also SDA doctrine. :D
     
    #20 trying2understand, Nov 19, 2003
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