I got tired of bumping this...

[BobRyan]

So first you "Claim" that SDAs have to accept Ellen White to join the church - but are "proven wrong".

Then you "claim" that this information is not on the web and are "proven wrong again".

Then you ... what??

Is there ever a point where you just admit what happened - just did happen?... i.e. you are wrong?

Does a "revisionist history" model have to cloud your approach to every single exchange?


Or was that your way of saying we are at the end?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

Or was that your way of saying we are at the end?

Not at all.

How is something a "doctrine" of your church if it is not a belief necessary for membership?

Or is it that members are recruited first and informed later?

Isn't this a little like the Mormons? You know, one doesn't get to find out what they actually believe until you've joined?

 

[BobRyan]

Soooo anyway.

After ignoring the litany of "once Again proved wrong" our RC brother simply "adds" to his list of errors.

He "ignores the details" of what has been posted for his next most speculative "claim" that maybe, possibly, hopefully, the Adventists are not telling people what they believe before having them join the church....Forgetting that this has already been addressed - and simply speculating it as "a kind of RC truth" to add to the truths they have already accepted.

And yet...

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The church meets every 5 years to vote on and affirm the official statment of 27 beliefs. That set of beliefs are studied with and reviewed with each person before joining the church. The web site is correctly reporting the results of that vote. It shows the official statement of beliefs of this denomination. Everyone who joins our church is given that list knowing what the church believes.

The fact is -- if person says they accept the 1Cor 12 doctrine on spiritual gifts but do not accept that Ellen White had an instance of the gift of prophecy mentioned in 1Cor 12 -- that person is still allowed membership into the church.

No change.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[trying2understand]

So let me get this.

Ellen White is a prophet whose writings are inspired and hold divine authority for doctrine is a doctrine of the SDA.

To become a member you must believe the doctrines of the SDA.

To be a member you don't have to believe that Ellen White is a prophet whose writings are inspired and hold divine authority for doctrine.


And this makes sense to you?

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
So let me get this.

Ellen White is a prophet whose writings are inspired and hold divine authority for doctrine is a doctrine of the SDA.

To become a member you must believe the doctrines of the SDA.

To be a member you don't have to believe that Ellen White is a prophet whose writings are inspired and hold divine authority for doctrine.


And this makes sense to you?

Bob, how is something a "doctrine" of your church but not a "test" for membership?

Are members of your church free to reject other doctrines?

 

[BobRyan]

"How is it"??

The "How" is easy. Each person is told exactly what the doctrine is. In the case of 1Cor 12 and "spiritual gifts" if they choose to ignore that doctrine entirely - we typically refuse to Baptize them. If they accept the doctrine itself but reject the fact that Ellen White is an example of someone with one of the gifts of 1Cor 12, we do not make that a sticking point. They are still free to join if they so desire.

Obviously many do just that - since the entire set of doctrinal studies is done "sola scriptura". There was never a point where they "needed" to accept Ellen White's gift - to "Get" one of the doctrinal statements.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
If they accept the doctrine itself but reject the fact that Ellen White is an example of someone with one of the gifts of 1Cor 12, we do not make that a sticking point. They are still free to join if they so desire.

I believe that the 27 statements do say that White is someone with one of the gifts "is doctrine".

Why allow this doctrine to be rejected?

Are there any other doctrines that can be rejected?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

Each person is told exactly what the doctrine is. In the case of 1Cor 12 and "spiritual gifts" if they choose to ignore that doctrine entirely - we typically refuse to Baptize them.


If they accept the doctrine itself but reject the fact that Ellen White is an example of someone with one of the gifts of 1Cor 12, we do not make that a sticking point. They are still free to join if they so desire.

So -- "again" that would be "ALL" 27.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:

Each person is told exactly what the doctrine is. In the case of 1Cor 12 and "spiritual gifts" if they choose to ignore that doctrine entirely - we typically refuse to Baptize them.


If they accept the doctrine itself but reject the fact that Ellen White is an example of someone with one of the gifts of 1Cor 12, we do not make that a sticking point. They are still free to join if they so desire.

So -- "again" that would be "ALL" 27.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Ellen White as prophet is part of the doctrine.

I guess that I need to rephrase my question.

Bob, are there parts of any other doctrine that you can reject and still be a memeber?

Like, can someone drop the Holy Spirit from the Trinity and still be a member?

 

[BobRyan]

I don't know of anyone that has been allowed to join the church - while rejecting the doctrine of the trinity - but of course - they don't have to get my blessing before joining - so there might be some local congregation out there on the planet some place that did it.

In fact - I did not even know there was such a thing as an Adventist that did not accept the Triune God teaching of the Adventist church until I ran across a few on the web a couple of years ago.

Adventists typically do not hold "yearly reviews" of your membership to see if "you Still accept All 27" - no inquisition - sorry.

Here are the 2 doctrines you are focused on - this will give you a better shot at them.

16. Spiritual Gifts and Ministries:
God bestows upon all members of His church in every age spiritual gifts which each member is to employ in loving ministry for the common good of the church and of humanity. Given by the agency of the Holy Spirit, who apportions to each member as He wills, the gifts provide all abilities and ministries needed by the church to fulfill its divinely ordained functions. According to the Scriptures, these gifts include such ministries as faith, healing, prophecy, proclamation, teaching, administration, reconciliation, compassion, and self-sacrificing service and charity for the help and encouragement of people. Some members are called of God and endowed by the Spirit for functions recognized by the church in pastoral, evangelistic, apostolic, and teaching ministries particularly needed to equip the members for service, to build up the church to spiritual maturity, and to foster unity of the faith and knowledge of God. When members employ these spiritual gifts as faithful stewards of God's varied grace, the church is protected from the destructive influence of false doctrine, grows with a growth that is from God, and is built up in faith and love. (Rom. 12:4-8; 1 Cor. 12:9-11, 27, 28; Eph. 4:8, 11-16; Acts 6:1-7; 1 Tim. 3:1-13; 1 Peter 4:10, 11.)

17. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

Never let it be said that I did not oblige my critics.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[trying2understand]

Bob, that Ellen White is a prophet is doctrine to your churh. But it is not required that one believe in this doctrine to join your church.

Why?

What other doctrines of your church may be rejected by one who wants to join your church?

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Here are the 2 doctrines you are focused on - this will give you a better shot at them.

17. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

Bob, I do not see any room here for someone who acdepts SDA doctrine, to say that Ellen White can be rejected.

How can one reject this doctrine of the SDA and still become a memeber?

Please explain this contradiction to me in the most direct and most simple way that you can.

 

[CalvinG]

Tryingtounderstand,

Many Protestant faiths permit members to disagree with them about certain things and yet still remain in fellowship.

I, for instance, disagree with the Baptist denomination about the appropriateness of using grape juice rather than wine in communion. I don't contend that this is a sin, but I do contend that it is unnecessary to change a longstanding tradition, started by Jesus himself, of using wine at communion in order to help the donimination preserve the general aversion of many of its members for drinking anything with ethanol content. This disagreement is permitted.

I don't think that an SDA or a Baptist would be a member in good standing or in fellowship if the particular person denied the divinity of Christ, denied the truth of the Gospels, or any number of other things.

Not all churches are like the Catholic denomination. We don't believe in top-down hierarchy. We don't believe that ordinary human beings, to be constured to include popes, are infallible, or that people can be required to accept that which man adds to Scripture for church membership.

I'm sure BobRyan will correct me if I have stated this wrongly. We Protestants are allowed by our denominations to be thinking individuals who don't believe everything the church says (while still believing in the truth of Scripture). I realize that this is different from my perception of the Catholic denomination. But it is not any less valid an approach to Christianity.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by CalvinG:
[QB] Tryingtounderstand,

Many Protestant faiths permit members to disagree with them about certain things and yet still remain in fellowship.

I don't think that an SDA or a Baptist would be a member in good standing or in fellowship if the particular person denied the divinity of Christ, denied the truth of the Gospels, or any number of other things.

Ellen White as prophet and inspired writer is a doctrine of faith with the SDA.

It is defined as an offical belief of the SDA.

Which of the Baptist distinctives are you free to reject and still be baptized into a Baptist church?

I believe that you would say none.

That is why Bob Ryan is having such a hard time answering my question.

He can not explain why someone can reject this particular doctrine of the SDA and yet still be admitted into the SDA church.

I suspect that it has to do with deceiving potential members.

Few people would agree to the doctrine that Ellen White was a prophet and the her writings are inspired and are divinely authoritative for the formation of doctrine.

This isn't a matter of wine or grape juice.

BTW, it's wine.

 

[Yelsew]

I have no particular problem with people believing whatever it is they believe, so long as they can defend their belief with substance.

Saying you believe something without having substantial personal support for the belief, is accepting someone else's beliefs as your own, and that simply don't cut it! I don't think God allows that in the final judgment either. For example, my faith cannot be your faith and your faith cannot be my faith. We each must have our own personal and individual faith in God. If either of us is relying on someone else's faith to save us we miss our own salvation.

Same thing applies to the demoninational docrines. You can believe whatever wind of doctrine you will, but if you cannot support that doctrine with foundational truth that you personally believe, that doctrine is worthless and must be discarded.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by trying2understand:

Which of the Baptist distinctives are you free to reject and still be baptized into a Baptist church?

I believe that you would say none.

Wrong. Baptist accept the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers. There are "some" that you must accept - but that does not mean that the small set which all must accept to "be baptized" in the first place - are the only doctrines that are taught in the Baptist church.

You picked a poor example to use as your illustration. The fact is the Adventist are far MORE picky on the set that you must accept - and that are not optional - than the Baptist.

You are out on a limb on this one.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[GraceSaves]

Bob,

Please be so kind as to explain to me why anyone would join a Church founded by a woman believed by (at least the majority of) its members to have the divine gift of prophecy, if they believed she was a phony, or that her Church body as a whole believed was real?

That sounds to me like trying to be Catholic but denying the authority of the papacy. What would be the point of being Catholic and legitimately so if you rejected the teaching authority? If Ellen G. White was a loon, and I believed this, why in the world would I join the SDA?

You need to answer that very legitimate question for me, please, because I can't understand it.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GraceSaves:
[QB] Trying,

If an SDA did not believe that her writings were inspired and on par with Scripture, then why would they remain an SDA?

Well... hmmmm lets think really hard here and see if we can figure that out.

Oh .. wait! I have it! See Bob? See Bob Post? See Bob not-use Ellen-White-quotes for his "proof"??

Hmmm maybe there are one or two "just like that" using the Bible alone to make their doctrinal case and paying attention to "the details"!

yep! That's it!.

...
</font>[/QUOTE]No change.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Bob,

Please be so kind as to explain to me why anyone would join a Church founded by a woman believed by (at least the majority of) its members to have the divine gift of prophecy, if they believed she was a phony, or that her Church body as a whole believed was real?

That sounds to me like trying to be Catholic but denying the authority of the papacy. What would be the point of being Catholic and legitimately so if you rejected the teaching authority? If Ellen G. White was a loon, and I believed this, why in the world would I join the SDA?

You need to answer that very legitimate question for me, please, because I can't understand it.

Unique and distinctive doctrines of the SDA church - are not "we believe in the 1Cor 12 doctrine of spiritual gifts". WE happen to accept them - but that is not what makes us distinct.

It is the others among the 27 Fundamental Beliefs that are compelling EVEN those who do not accept the gift God gave Ellen White.

Since none of them rely upon a "Ellen White said" as their "proof" -- those who join are obviously choosing to accept them on a "sola scriptura" basis.

Then As they look at the history of the Adventist and find that instead of slaughtering opponents or any such thing - what actually happened was that a group of people started the church - and among them was a 16 year old girl in 1844 that went on to receive the gift of prophecy after Oct 22 1844 - they simply accept the history even if they are not convinced hers was the gift of prophecy. ( so they don't drop their Bibles and become atheists - amazingly.)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[GraceSaves]

Bob,

That answer seems besides the point. If I am claiming to have a special gift from God, and you don't believe me, why would you join my Church anyway? Even if what I am saying appears in line with your beliefs, if you do not believe that I am truthful when I say I have a gift (or my believers do), why join my Church?