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I Tim 2:8-14

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
EWF, you even go to extremes of using a stupid analogy to defend allowing the rebellion against Biblical commands. The example of your brother and his wife is totally irrelevant to this situation. By your convoluted logic, I could defend gay marriage. I know a lot of Christian couples who have divorced. Two 70+ year old gay men who live down the road have lived together since they were in their earlu 30s and have been "married" for many years. By your logic, gay marriage must be correct and heterosexual marriage wrong.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
I hear many on here say Paul's command was due to culture. In context, that is utter nonsense. Paul plainly stated the man was created first and the woman was deceived first. Those two facts will never change nor be altered by culture. Just as the pain of childbirth is on woman forever, so is the Biblical command she be subject to man.
Let's look at the context of 1 Timothy 2.
Notice God's desire and Paul's desire. Notice that Paul does not state his desire as a command, but he does state that his present action is to not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. This is Paul's choice. The greek tense allows for this to be read as "I do not, presently, allow women to teach..."
The key is to recognize that Paul is really focused on his desire for both men and women in the church. Paul cares deeply for both. He wants all to come to a deep understanding of God and to be theologically sound. Paul is not a mysogynist, but unfortunately mysogynists certainly take this passage as license to mistreat women.

1 Timothy 2:3-4,8-15
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Let's look at the context of 1 Timothy 2.
Notice God's desire and Paul's desire. Notice that Paul does not state his desire as a command, but he does state that his present action is to not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. This is Paul's choice. The greek tense allows for this to be read as "I do not, presently, allow women to teach..."
The key is to recognize that Paul is really focused on his desire for both men and women in the church. Paul cares deeply for both. He wants all to come to a deep understanding of God and to be theologically sound. Paul is not a mysogynist, but unfortunately mysogynists certainly take this passage as license to mistreat women.

1 Timothy 2:3-4,8-15
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
It was the inspired word from the Holy Spirit to us for all time and settings
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Let's look at the context of 1 Timothy 2.
Notice God's desire and Paul's desire. Notice that Paul does not state his desire as a command, but he does state that his present action is to not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. This is Paul's choice. The greek tense allows for this to be read as "I do not, presently, allow women to teach..."
The key is to recognize that Paul is really focused on his desire for both men and women in the church. Paul cares deeply for both. He wants all to come to a deep understanding of God and to be theologically sound. Paul is not a mysogynist, but unfortunately mysogynists certainly take this passage as license to mistreat women.

1 Timothy 2:3-4,8-15
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
The reasoning was Adam was created first and Eve was deceived. The woman still births the children in pain. This does not change with culture or time.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
It was the inspired word from the Holy Spirit to us for all time and settings
No one disagrees with God inspiring this text. Read the text. Look at what Paul actually says, not what he doesn't say. The word "desire" is important in this text. He is not making a universal command to all churches throughout all time. If he is, then you have to take Paul's comments about God desiring all men to be saved to actually be universal salvation to all human beings. Consistency, here, is important.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
The reasoning was Adam was created first and Eve was deceived. The woman still births the children in pain. This does not change with culture or time.
I am not arguing against the order of creation. Eve was deceived. Adam completely failed in his protection of Eve, which is why the curse fell on Adam.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am not arguing against the order of creation. Eve was deceived. Adam completely failed in his protection of Eve, which is why the curse fell on Adam.
Are we now going to point the finger of blame in order to define status? How asinine is that!?!
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
EWF, you even go to extremes of using a stupid analogy to defend allowing the rebellion against Biblical commands. The example of your brother and his wife is totally irrelevant to this situation. By your convoluted logic, I could defend gay marriage. I know a lot of Christian couples who have divorced. Two 70+ year old gay men who live down the road have lived together since they were in their earlu 30s and have been "married" for many years. By your logic, gay marriage must be correct and heterosexual marriage wrong.

Lol…now you’re playing the queer card!?! Get it straight, we are discussing relationships between husbands and wives… the male and female kind.

I just calls them as I sees them… and I know of three men who tried pressing there wives into service using the scripture… they are all dIvorced now. The divorce courts don’t hold to women being subservient to their husbands… the wives were all handsomely rewarded. Maybe you could speak to my brother about all the financial repercussions. He was a pastor so he might be able to square it aware for you.
 
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AustinC

Well-Known Member
Are we now going to point the finger of blame in order to define status? How asinine is that!?!
Status?
The status of all humanity is...corrupt sinner damned to hell, but by the grace of God.
I am not talking about status. I am talking about role. What role did Adam have? He was the head gardener, tasked with managing all aspects of the garden. Eve was his help mate who assisted him in the garden maintenance. When a predator came into the garden to deceive, Adam did not fulfill his role of management and predator control. He didn't crush the serpents head. Eve did her job, but was deceived by the serpent. Adam wasn't deceived, he just joined in with her. Adam takes the brunt of the curse as the head gardener.

Hopefully you see that I am not talking about status.
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Lol…now you’re playing the queer card!?! Get it straight, we are discussing relationships between husbands and wives… the male and female kind.

I just calls them as I sees them… and I know of three men who tried pressing there wives into service using the scripture… they are all dIvorced now. The divorce courts don’t hold to women being subservient to their husbands… the wives were all handsomely rewarded. Maybe you could speak to my brother about all the financial repercussions. He was a pastor so he might be able to square it abate for you.
You disagree with Scripture because you saw three men fail at something?
Is Scripture correct or is your brother your guide? I get it. You have a wife in rebellion to Scripture so you have to deal with it. I don't suggest you break up a marriage trying. My point is, you should acknowledge that Scripture is right, she is wrong, and quit defending rebellion. It strikes a nerve with you because you know she is in rebellion to both Christ and you.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You disagree with Scripture because you saw three men fail at something?
Is Scripture correct or is your brother your guide? I get it. You have a wife in rebellion to Scripture so you have to deal with it. I don't suggest you break up a marriage trying. My point is, you should acknowledge that Scripture is right, she is wrong, and quit defending rebellion. It strikes a nerve with you because you know she is in rebellion to both Christ and you.
I never said I disagree with scripture… you drew that conclusion. And I don’t have to deal with any position my wife takes. I’ve told her that her argument is with Paul, not me. However we have had a pretty good life for 35 years so I not going to have to press it. At least we live in harmony vs my brothers family mess. But I’m sure that he would have done things differently. He would have … ah that’s his problem not mine.
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I never said I disagree with scripture… you drew that conclusion. And I don’t have to deal with any position my wife takes. I’ve told her that her argument is with Paul, not me. However we have had a pretty good life for 35 years so I not going to have to press it. At least we live in harmony vs my brothers family mess. But I’m sure that he would have done things differently. He would have … ah that’s his problem not mine.
If you know your wife is in rebellion to Scripture, why in the world were defending it up until this post? Your wife's problem is not with Paul. Her problem is with God. Unless that is you do not believe Paul's writing are inspired. Your wife sounds a bit like Beth Moore, trying to put Paul and Jesus into conflict in an attempt to justify rebellion.
 
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JesusFan

Well-Known Member
No one disagrees with God inspiring this text. Read the text. Look at what Paul actually says, not what he doesn't say. The word "desire" is important in this text. He is not making a universal command to all churches throughout all time. If he is, then you have to take Paul's comments about God desiring all men to be saved to actually be universal salvation to all human beings. Consistency, here, is important.
Women are not to be either pastors nor elders in a local church, correct?
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Status?
The status of all humanity is...corrupt sinner damned to hell, but by the grace of God.
I am not talking about status. I am talking about role. What role did Adam have? He was the head gardener, tasked with managing all aspects of the garden. Eve was his help mate who assisted him in the garden maintenance. When a predator came into the garden to deceive, Adam did not fulfill his role of management and predator control. He didn't crush the serpents head. Eve did her job, but was deceived by the serpent. Adam wasn't deceived, he just joined in with her. Adam takes the brunt of the curse as the head gardener.

Hopefully you see that I am not talking about status.
Still we are in fact assigning status to each of the rolls… ie where does the woman stand with regard to the man…. Even today, man has supremacy above woman. Even though both failed in their rolls played.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Women are not to be either pastors nor elders in a local church, correct?
Why is that such a big deal to you? Did Jesus make a big deal about it… or did I miss that. Did he throw the first stone or any stone for that matter at the female adulteress, did he accuse her of anything, did he judge her? Or did he forgive her and defend her? Jesus seemed much more upset with the money changers in the temple, overthrowing their tables and goods for sale… in the temple!
 
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