1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured I was stunned to have white grape juice at Communion

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Hermeneut7, Aug 23, 2017.

  1. Hermeneut7

    Hermeneut7 Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2014
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I guess I approach this from an old fashioned Baptist perspective. The NT does not give a formula, or precise instructions on baptism; but, we Baptists historically have gone by example, believers baptism by immersion as we read the NT. If I transfer the same reasoning to the Lord's Supper, I come to the conclusion for myself, that red wine is the biblical example, but the question of the bread, I go with leavened bread. I researched and it seems that only the RC and old Lutherans are dogmatic on using red wine. As I worked my way through the Bible in references to wine, I can find nothing but references that show symbolism of "red" and "blood" and nowhere do I find a hint of white wine: Gen 49:11,12; Dt 32:14; Pro 23:31; Isa 49:26, 63:2; Zech 9:15; Rev 14:20 all from the NRSV. Then if I go to the non-canonical apocrypha to get a historical perspective of Jewish thought, I find the following two passages:

    "The basic necessities of human life are water and fire and iron and salt and wheat flour and milk and honey, the blood of the grape and oil and clothing."
    (Sir 39:26 NRSVA)

    "he held out his hand for the cup and poured a drink offering of the blood of the grape; he poured it out at the foot of the altar, a pleasing odor to the Most High, the king of all."
    (Sir 50:15 NRSVA)

    I therefore believe red wine symbolizing blood and sacrifice is the proper element here. When it comes to the question of leaven or unleavened bread, I like how the Puritan Matthew Poole commented upon this:

    "Jesus took bread; without doubt unleavened bread, for this night there was no other to be found in the house of any Jew, nor yet for seven days which began from the sunset of this night. But it will not from hence follow, that the Lord’s supper must be eaten with unleavened bread. For though our Saviour be to be imitated in his actions relating to gospel worship; yet not in such of them which had a plain reference to the Jewish worship, and were there instituted for a special reason, as unleavened bread was, to put them in mind of the haste in which they came out of Egypt. Our Saviour at this time could use no other than unleavened bread, for no other was to be had."

    So I take the question of leaven related to the Old Covenant Passover symbolism that is not fitting for the New Covenant; but, the symbolism of the red wine to blood sacrifice carries though, as Jesus said: "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." Now, I do not wish to seem legalistic about this, but the question of using white grape juice instead of red wine, does cause me to question the reason for it and I am going to ask my Pastor about it, just as an inquiry. Any other SBC churches using white grape juice?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,371
    Likes Received:
    2,405
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Before I get all theological, I'd find out:
    was some one told to go buy grape juice for next Sunday's Lord's Table.
    did the buyer go in and see that the white grape juice was on special thus cheaper than the red.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To be historical I believe we should be using Passover wine and unleavened bread for the Lord's Table.

    HankD
     
  4. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    5,020
    Likes Received:
    941
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    So where does grape juice come into the picture, be it either red or white?
     
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But wouldn't that assume the last supper and thus the Lord's Supper to be a Passover Seder? And if so shouldn't we then only celebrate it once per year?

    I find it more compelling the last supper was not a Passover Seder as Christ was crucified on the preparation day. :)
     
  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But that was probably all that was available to them - the Days of Unleavened Bread bread and the Seder Wine of Blessing wine.

    HankD
     
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Like summer clothes in the store starting at Christmas? :D
     
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sure.

    HankD
     
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I wasn't sure anyone would understand that. :D

    "Sorry no regular wine or bread today. We are all stocked up for Passover."

    :D:D:D
     
  10. Rolfe

    Rolfe Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 17, 2014
    Messages:
    6,898
    Likes Received:
    638
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Red v. White. Seems a bit nIt-picky to me.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    9,471
    Likes Received:
    1,228
    Faith:
    Baptist
  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I was in a church once that served water. :)
     
  13. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,130
    Likes Received:
    59
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What if your only fruit of the vine comes from the muscadine? Maybe all some people have is coconut milk.

    How about some Mogen David Blackberry Wine? Maybe we need some grape juice with an arterial blood coloration. Jesus bled blood and water when His side was pierced. See pericardial and pleural effusion. This is a real dilemma! The blood of The Lamb of God is before The Throne of God. The color of our fruit of the vine is probably irrelevant.

    We seem to have more leaven in the lump than we realize.

    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Bro. James
     
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    10,967
    Likes Received:
    2,380
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Believe it or not The Primitive Baptist Church I grew up in used Mogen David wine and the sisters made unleavened bread, that was used in communion... Imagine that!... We also washed each others feet, one at a time... Some of you on here already know that, this is for those that don't... I'm just keeping it historical... Brother Glen:)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,982
    Likes Received:
    2,615
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I had a pastor who told me when he was a missionary on Papua new Guinea they used cucumber juice
     
  16. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    13,793
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That is funny?
    Did you ever find oh the reason why?
     
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Mormon Church uses water.

    HankD
     
  18. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
  19. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    13,793
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I learn something new everyday.
     
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No. It was just their practice.
     
Loading...