1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

If "Any Man" Thirst

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Pastor_Bob, Feb 1, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. PrmtvBptst1832

    PrmtvBptst1832 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    40
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So long as the word of the cross is folly to the natural person, they will not believe it. Do you believe things you consider to be folly? As far as the charge of Gnosticism is concerned, that is not even worth a response and is only a diversion of the real issue, viz. your soteriology cannot be reconciled with the Scriptures.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,296
    Likes Received:
    307
    Faith:
    Baptist
    First, we are called to repent and believe...The Spirit of God convicts us of "unbelief" ;)

    Second, an importation of knowledge that you speak of concerning faith is by definition Gnosticism.
     
  3. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,216
    Likes Received:
    31
    No, that's absolutely, positively, without question NOT THE POINT.

    Calvinists are arguing that someone who is (physically) dead cannot "hear" or "see" etc... etc...
    That's the analogy...

    They want to equate that with "Spiritual" death..and therefore argue that regeneration is necessary for a man to respond to the gospel.

    The problem is...
    DEAD men....don't sin...they don't "plow" they don't "persecute the churches of God"...(as the apostle Paul claimed he did) they don't do "wickedness"...

    They're DEAD....Therefore, they can't SIN either.

    Realize two things:
    1.) The Calvinist argument doesn't actually NEED this to survive..
    that is to say.....
    Calvinism COULD be true despite this, and it isn't even necessary for you to defend this line of argument.
    2.) It's a pathetically, and self-evidently BAD line of argument, and it doesn't need defending, because Calvinist Theology doesn't even rise or fall upon it.

    I'd be more convinced by Calvinists if you understood the strengths of your arguments instead of defended it's weaknesses...
    You don't even need this to be true for your argument to work....or to demonstrate that the Calvinist schema is true.

    But you guys fight this stupid battle for no apparent reason when it isn't even necessary.

    I'd kill to debate a Calvinist who understood the first thing about what they believed.
    They aren't to be found on Baptist Board that's for sure.

    Analogizing "Spiritual death" with "physical death" is a stupid and sophomoric argument.....(which you don't even need to prove your case)...
    I wish you guys understood Calvinist Theology enough to know that.

    It isn't "Arminians" who don't understand Calvinism...
    It's Calvinists.
     
    #103 HeirofSalvation, Feb 2, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,658
    Likes Received:
    3,331
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Except that is not what I did. :rolleyes:
     
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,658
    Likes Received:
    3,331
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Or both. Your next statement makes that clear. "an unsaved man will never understand the things of God."

    Exactly! Contrasting the Holy Spirit illuminated person with the lost person who does not have the Holy Spirit.

    He is saying that without the illuminating ministry of the indwelling Holy Spirit the unsaved man will not understand, and will think it is all foolishness.

    It says what it says. You have to deal with it. :)
     
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,658
    Likes Received:
    3,331
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes. And unfortunate fact in light of the meaning of "friend" in the early 21st century.

    Friend: archaic: a member of the same nation, party, etc. (American Heritage Dictionary)

    It was Jews who came to arrest, torture, and kill the Lord.
     
  7. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,216
    Likes Received:
    31
    That's exactly what you did.
    Calvinists regularly do this.

    You don't even NEED to...

    The case for Calvinism is actually much stronger than this.
    I wish you understood the case well enough to realize that you can abandon that line of argument wholesale because the case for Calvinism is MUCH stronger than this, and doesn't depend on it.
    But, this line of argument is pathetic.

    I'd defend Calvinism better than you would here because this "dead-man" stuff is not even necessary.
    You won't hear it from me of course, but hopefully someone will teach you that one day, and then perhaps, you'll understand Calvinist apologetic.

    You could concede this point entirely...and it wouldn't undermine the Calvinist case at all. (because it doesn't really hang on it.)
    Maybe you'll figure that out one day.
     
  8. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2017
    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    89
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Bible is instructive on how we should engage with each other.

    Did you miss this verse?

    James 1:26English Standard Version (ESV)

    26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.
     
  9. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,216
    Likes Received:
    31
    No...I didn't.
    But. the verse, and your point is irrelevant.

    [Harassment edited]
     
    #109 HeirofSalvation, Feb 2, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2018
  10. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    2,614
    Likes Received:
    586
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I promised I would write about why men thirst for God.

    I will start with the biblical doctrine of total inability. Total inability is defined as the view that because of their sinfulness, humans are not able to perform any action that will lead to their salvation. God must take the initiative to give the gift of faith and repentance.*

    Romans 8:5-8
    5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    The sinner is unable (v. 7) to subject himself to the law of God because he is spiritually dead (Eph. 2;1; Col. 2:13). I know this fact has been debated numerous times on the Baptist Board and some Synergists grow weary of hearing it. Unfortunately (for them) weary does not mean the point is wrong. Sin is a theological pathogen. It is an invasive infection that kills man's spiritual nature. Being spiritually dead does not mean a lack of spiritual activity. Man is a spiritual being. He possesses an insatiable spiritual appetite. Because his sin has effectively cut him off from God, he fills his spiritual need on those things that can never satisfy. We see the symptoms of a sinful appetite all the time. Anger, hatred, drunkenness, sexual perversion, greed, envy - I can go on. Paul described this type of life in Ephesians:

    Ephesians 2:1-3 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

    How can a sinner thirst for righteousness when he is in bondage to sin? Unless the Lord intervenes no man will develop a genuine thirst for the things of God. I wrote in my previous post that God will use circumstances of all types to call His elect. He may bring us through deep waters until we are the end of ourselves. You hear these stories all the time on the Pacific Garden Mission radion program "Unshackled". Many of the stories are about people who fell into the depths of sin and then turned their hearts to God. None of these people turned to God until God first did a transforming work in their lives. You have heard the verses on the Monergist view of the ordo salutis (order of salvation) before, so I will not spend much time on it here. God calls His elect in time. When He calls them He quickens them to the things of God. At that point, He creates in them a thirst for the water of life. This thirst did not originate from within the sinner since the sinner is not capable of any good thing. The good news is that once that thirst is created, it is quenched by the Spirit of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

    *Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms
     
  11. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,717
    Likes Received:
    142
    Indeed, but it is not saying what you're saying it is saying. Context is the key, my Brother.
     
  12. PrmtvBptst1832

    PrmtvBptst1832 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    40
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I will have to assume you are referring to John 16:9 since you did not reference it in your reply. However, I fail to see its relevance in this discussion.

    According to your simplistic (and incorrect) definition of Gnosticism, you are a Gnostic as well. Do you not consider the gospel to be among "the things of God?" You have failed to provide any meaningful exegesis of the passages under discussion. I will assume you do not have an answer.
     
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,658
    Likes Received:
    3,331
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So, what part of "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" is so hard to understand?

    Doesn't it mean what it says?
     
  14. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,677
    Likes Received:
    372
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Spiritually dead, Spiritually dead men don't seek God. They do; however, sin. They do that very well.
     
  15. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,216
    Likes Received:
    31
    Brian...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................
    If you don't want them to "HEAR"......................................................................................................................................................................................................
    or "SEE"....................................................................................................................................................................................................................
    Than you can't press the analogy as far as you do.


    It's so simple a baby could see it.
    You guys press this analogy too far, and it proves too much.
    One has to be cognitively disconnected not to see the problem here.
     
  16. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,717
    Likes Received:
    142
    Not sure to what you are referring. As far as I know, I’ve never offered any definition of Gnosticism.
     
  17. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,717
    Likes Received:
    142
    It absolutely does. It means that, until the man is saved, he will not understand spiritual truth. It is in no way a proof text for the total inability of man in regard to salvation.
     
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,658
    Likes Received:
    3,331
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Exactly! He does not understand spiritual truth until God saves him and he is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Then he has faith to believe, repent, and obey. Just as it says. :)

    And where do you get this "total inability" stuff? What does that have to do with the discussion? I never mentioned it because I know it is a cop out by those who hate the fact that sinful man has been ruined by the fall and want to deny man's depravity. :(
     
  19. PrmtvBptst1832

    PrmtvBptst1832 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    40
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I will have to assume you are referring to John 16:9 since you did not reference it in your reply. However, I fail to see its relevance in this discussion.

    According to your simplistic (and incorrect) definition of Gnosticism, you are a Gnostic as well since you do admit that one "must be a child of God in order to understand the things of God." Do you not consider the gospel to be among "the things of God?" You have failed to provide any meaningful exegesis of the passages under discussion. I will assume you do not have an answer.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. PrmtvBptst1832

    PrmtvBptst1832 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    40
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That part of the response was intended for JohnShaff. My apologies, Sir. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...