1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

If "Any Man" Thirst

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Pastor_Bob, Feb 1, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    3,341
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, I'm not. I used physical death, which we can see, know and understand, to illustrate spiritual death, which we cannot see, nor know, nor fully understand.

    It is a proven pedagogical method to go from what is understood to what is being taught.

    A physically dead man can no more respond to physical things than a spiritually dead man can respond to spiritual things. That is the whole point of 1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
     
  2. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Good question, but, we have to keep this in its context:


    John 7:37-39
    King James Version (KJV)

    37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



    "Drinking" was no more a possibility than believing was. This would not see its fulfillment until men began to be baptized by Christ with the Holy Ghost, or in other words, immersed in Eternal Union with God.



    Spurgeon could ask those questions post-New Covenant Era, but I do not see an apt correlation to the passage you present.

    "Drinking" is euphemistic for belief itself, and it would not be until Christ had died, arose, ascended, and sent the Comforter that men would actually believe in the Risen Lord.


    God bless.
     
  3. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,330
    Likes Received:
    309
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I've already responded to this in this thread....Ephesians 2:1-3 already says what a "spiritually dead'' person does or doesn't do...why add to the Word of God?

    Let's look at the context...and See what "Dead people do or don't do"....

    Ephesians 2:1-3

    So we were dead in trespasses and sins: (What does that mean?)

    Vs. 2--Dead people are led by the world and the devil:
    in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

    Vs. 3--Dead people walk according to the lusts of their flesh:
    among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

    Nope, i don't see Paul saying that spiritually dead people can't hear or call out to the LORD. The Lord's Voice and Word are powerful enough for even DEAD people to HEAR and respond to :)
     
  4. PrmtvBptst1832

    PrmtvBptst1832 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    40
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:44)

    "And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:65)

    If you show me one who has come to Jesus, I will show you one whom the Father has drawn and one to whom it has been granted to come. Otherwise, no one will come because no one can come apart from the grace of God. Ephesians 1:15-2:10 very clearly illustrate this. What we have presented in the Scriptures is not an impotent god who cannot save apart from the free will of man and cheap, high-pressure "witnessing" that passes today for evangelism, but the omnipotent God who chose us in his Son before the foundation of the world and predestined us to be his sons and daughters according to the counsel of his will." (Ephesians 1:3-5, 11)

    "For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?" (Isaiah 14:27)
     
    #84 PrmtvBptst1832, Feb 2, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  5. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,330
    Likes Received:
    309
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Right, God draws people who believe Christ's Testimony to Christ...it's not that hard.

    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
     
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    3,341
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Trust the bible. It will never lead you astray.

    1 Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    I know it is hard when the bible contradicts your opinions, but it is always better to adjust your opinions to fit the bible rather than try to adjust the bible to fit your opinions. :)
     
  7. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,719
    Likes Received:
    143
    It seems to be translated "friend" in every English translation that I checked.
     
  8. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,330
    Likes Received:
    309
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Correct, Man would not come up with the Gospel if he tried. This passage has nothing to do with whether or not one can believe Christ's Testimony.

    Instead of Quoting one or two of those verses in the 2nd Chapter, why don't you break it down in totality? :)

    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    Paul's point is simple--God chose a method that confounds man's wisdom. The Natural man cannot "figure out the plans of God."

    He's not saying man cannot believe the Testimony of Christ.
     
  9. PrmtvBptst1832

    PrmtvBptst1832 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    40
    Faith:
    Baptist
  10. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,330
    Likes Received:
    309
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What does that statement have to do with the two verses i posted?
     
  11. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,330
    Likes Received:
    309
    Faith:
    Baptist
    John 6

    67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

    68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

    69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

    Those who reject Christ "Go away"

    Those who believe Christ are drawn to Him of the Father.

    Simple.
     
  12. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,719
    Likes Received:
    143
    Amen! :Thumbsup

    This is dealing with Holy Spirit illumination, not salvation. Paul is simply pointing out to the saved Corinthians that an unsaved man will never understand the things of God until he becomes a child of God. He is not talking about inability to come to Christ here.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,330
    Likes Received:
    309
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'd hit "winner" a million times if i could.
     
  14. PrmtvBptst1832

    PrmtvBptst1832 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    40
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You stated that God draws those who first believe, but that turns what Jesus said into nonsense. There would be no need to draw them if they already believed. 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 is very plain; Those who do not have the Spirit of God cannot discern spiritual things because only the Spirit knows them and can thus reveal them. I suggest you also read 1 Corinthians 1:20-30 where Paul plainly teaches us that our being in Christ is because of God, not because we were smart enough to figure it out.

    "None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1 Corinthians 2:8)

    Why did they not understand this? The Spirit did not reveal it to them.

    "For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." (1 Corinthians 2:11)
     
    #94 PrmtvBptst1832, Feb 2, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  15. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,330
    Likes Received:
    309
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are conflating ideas.

    You're theology is preventing you from seeing the clear realities from the text.

    This is a narrative. Christ is saying, "You people in front of me, if you believed Moses' testimony, My Father's Word, You would be drawn to Me. But since you Do not believe the Scriptures, You are rejecting Me as well."

    Those who Loved/Believed "God's Word"--OT Scriptures/Yahweh--would have been Drawn by the Father to Love/believe Christ as well.
     
    #95 JonShaff, Feb 2, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  16. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,216
    Likes Received:
    31
    Really:

    [Personal attack edited]"Do you only accept the 'Reader's Digest Condensed Version' "?

    That's what you're going with?
    That's your response?

    O.K. folks:
    I've learned that sometimes, letting the other side debate their view...is the camel which drives others AWAY from it.

    I want EVERYONE to see T.Cassidy's response here...
    I'll requote it so you see it again:
    That was his counter folks:
    Absorb that.
    And judge the strength of Calvinism's arguments upon his response here.
    Everyone see this???
    Yes, this is Calvinist debate in action 101:
    Choose your side.

    Remember folks, T. Cassidy is a highly educated, thoroughly ingrained dedicated Calvinist......
    ...and this is his response.
    This
    is what he comes up with.....
    I'll repeat that for you:
    That was the sum total of his argument.
    [Personal attack edited]
     
    #96 HeirofSalvation, Feb 2, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2018
  17. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,719
    Likes Received:
    143
    Not the hill I would’ve chosen to die on, but you’re passionate, I’ll give you that.
     
  18. PrmtvBptst1832

    PrmtvBptst1832 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    40
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18)

    "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14)

    those who are perishing = the natural person
    the word of the cross = the things of the Spirit of God

    You are proposing that those who are perishing, to whom the word of the cross is folly, should believe it so that they can become spiritual and then be able to accept the things of the Spirit of God. Why would they need the Spirit of God to accept the things of the Spirit of God if they already accept the things of the Spirit of God, evidenced by the fact that they believe the word of the cross? Whose theology is preventing them from seeing the truth? Yours does not even make sense trying to explain.

    "Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." (John 6:35-37)

    "So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, I am the bread that came down from heaven. They said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, I have come down from heaven? Jesus answered them, Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, And they will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—" (John 6:41-45)

    "But there are some of you who do not believe. (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:64, 65)
     
  19. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,330
    Likes Received:
    309
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1 Cor. 2 is not talking about someone's inability to Believe the Testimony of Christ. Paul is simply explaining that the Gospel is foolishness to the natural man. Yet we are still called to Believe. Your idea that we have to be given faith to believe is Gnosticism.
     
  20. PrmtvBptst1832

    PrmtvBptst1832 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    40
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The point is, the Scriptures teach that man is dead, not sick. The solution to his problem is not medicine, but resurrection (Ephesians 1:15-2:10). Perhaps Paul was the one who "pressed the analogy too far and beyond reason."
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...