If faith is predestined and cause by God, then answer me this.....

[Reformed1689]

Now please keep in mind that, according to the scriptures [not according to pre-defined theology] a man has the ability to believe the gospel or reject it

Ability or choice? Those are not the same thing.

 

[Noah Hirsch]

In another thread


Reference the parable about the sower sowing seed. That's my best non-calvinist answer to this so far. ( Mark 4:1-9 )

I acknowledge that men do resist the Holy Spirit. I acknowledge there is a sense in which the non-elect (reprobate) are called to salvation. This is God’s universal call, His universal offer of forgiveness and command to repent and believe to all men. All do not receive the gospel in saving faith.

The Calvinistic understanding of the parable of the sower (Mark 4:1-20) says that those who are identified as being sown on good soil and bear fruit are the elect whom God effectually calls and grants saving faith.

The parable of the sower teaches us that not all faith is saving faith. Some may have a short of faith that is not saving faith in which “...they that are sown upon rocky places, who, when they have heard the word, straightway receive it with joy; and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway they stumble [or fall away].” (Mark 4:16-17 ASV)

These had a temporary faith, a faith that was not solid and firm.

The Second London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) refers to those who fall away from the faith and thus were never saved in the first place as “temporary believers.”

“Although temporary Believers, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes, and carnal presumptions, of being in the favour of God, and state of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish; yet such as truely believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity...may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of Grace...” (Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chap. XVIII: Of the Assurance of Grace and of Salvation, paragraph 1)

The whole number of the elect will most surely be saved and not fall away unto perdition.

“Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and Sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his Elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without Repentance, (whence he still begets and nourisheth in them Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality) and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastned upon: notwithstanding through unbelief and the temptations of Satan the sensible sight of the light and love of God, may for a time be clouded, and obscured from them, yet he is still the same and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto Salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all Eternity.” (Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chap. XVII: Of Perseverance of the Saints, paragraph 1)

“They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and
sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the
state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.” (The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chap. XVII: Of the Perseverance of the Saints, paragraph 1)

Those who receive the word and bear much fruit are those who receive it in true faith, the faith of God’s elect. Matthew’s account identifies those who bear much fruit as being those who understand the word.

“And he that was shown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” (Matthew 13:23 ASV)

 

[Particular]

In another thread


Reference the parable about the sower sowing seed. That's my best non-calvinist answer to this so far. ( Mark 4:1-9 )

I have seen many a person butcher that parable. Especially Arminians. If that parable is what you hang your theology upon, then you are living on really shakey ground.

 

[George Antonios]

Ability or choice? Those are not the same thing.

I'm not sure I follow you. But definitely the ability. Scriptures makes that clear.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with ME; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Paul is saying that his old nature can will to do good, but can't perform it. Christ said that the flesh is weak not dead; and it matches Paul’s words. Also matching is the fact that the prodigal son willed to return even while he had been described as dead by his father.
If we don't superpose a pre-packaged theology unto the text, the scriptures are clear. Even lost men can will do to good and to believe.
[This is no way negates that God takes the initiative in convincing men and drawing (not dragging) them].

 

[Jeremiah 6:16]

It is possible to be faith into a work by trusting in your faith as itself your righteousness before God rather than by faith resting in Christ and His righteousness.[/QUOTE]

It is very possible that many, if not most "Christians" today have completely put their faith in their own self and their own righteousness to be saved instead of the living God. I believe Ezekiel 18 and 33 talks about this. Which of course I don't know you but at least by your last sentence I'm glad to see you have an awareness to make this statement. God has to "Spiritually" give life to a believer. In John as Jesus told Nicodemus you must be born again. It's not just the act of a human intellectually acknowledging there is a Savior, but he must call out to the Lord, seek him, and put all his faith and trust in him with a broken heart and contrite spirit. Psalms and Proverbs is a great place to learn the secrets of the Lord. It is only when God personally saves a soul that a human being is truly born again. Many today are self deceived with self righteousness boasting of their good works thinking they are saved. Yet, what was Jesus telling the Pharisees? They outwardly look clean, yet inwardly never built their foundation on the Rock, which is Jesus. Their sin was never truly cleansed, many people today remind me of scripture that says beware of the false prophets that come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. It takes our Lord to produce any good. If there were any acceptance in the plan of salvation it's to accept that we are helpless without Jesus cleansing us from our sins and transgressions "before we die." There is a lot of religion in today's so called churches, not a lot of Salvation.

 

[Reformed1689]

I'm not sure I follow you. But definitely the ability. Scriptures makes that clear.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with ME; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Paul is saying that his old nature can will to do good, but can't perform it. Christ said that the flesh is weak not dead; and it matches Paul’s words. Also matching is the fact that the prodigal son willed to return even while he had been described as dead by his father.
If we don't superpose a pre-packaged theology unto the text, the scriptures are clear. Even lost men can will do to good and to believe.
[This is no way negates that God takes the initiative in convincing men and drawing (not dragging) them].

You might want to read over Romans 7 again. How in the world do you think that is saying the nature of the flesh can will to do good? It says no such thing.

And are you really using a parable to try and prove your claim when it has nothing to do with the topic? There is none that are righteous, there is none that seeketh after God.

So come back when you do exegesis and not whatever it is that you just tried to do.

 

[Alan Gross]

I hear you. Now please keep in mind that, according to the scriptures [not according to pre-defined theology] a man has the ability to believe the gospel or reject it and that that faith is not reckoned of God as a work. You are right that we avail ourselves of the righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ by believing; that faith is the means of obtaining that righteousness. But the believing in itself, is also a righteous thing - not a work...this is key, God doesn't look upon faith as a work - but a righteous thing. Unless one considers believing the gospel a wicked thing? Of course not. Now, that believing, even though it's righteous, does not, on its own, earn a man salvation, because I could, say, believe God about something else, like the promise of his second coming for example, but that would not impute unto me righteousness. Only believing in Jesus Christ does so, because thus Christ's righteousness is imputed to me. It's simply the means of obtaining the grace of God, for by grace are ye saved, through faith.
I understand the Calvinist reflex of almost gagging at someone saying that faith is counted of God as a righteous thing, but we must go by God's own words and not be more royal than the King. If he said that he counts my believing as righteousness, then OK Lord, I'll take it. (Keep in mind, that believing, in of itself does not save me, only the object in which I place my trust, namely, Jesus Christ, can save me; and that faith is not a work in the Bible).
This teaching is far less preposterous than the idea that we were elect [I did not say "saved", I said "elect"] based on a criterion other than Jesus Christ, which is what Calvinism teaches.

"Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him" . (2 Corinthians 5:21 ASV)

Noah, there is a word in this Scripture you stated that is not contained within the lengthy reply given, in the quoted part, above.

Do you know what it is?

 

[OldArmy]

Editing

 

[OldArmy]

I acknowledge that men do resist the Holy Spirit. I acknowledge there is a sense in which the non-elect (reprobate) are called to salvation. This is God’s universal call, His universal offer of forgiveness and command to repent and believe to all men. All do not receive the gospel in saving faith.

The Calvinistic understanding of the parable of the sower (Mark 4:1-20) says that those who are identified as being sown on good soil and bear fruit are the elect whom God effectually calls and grants saving faith.

The parable of the sower teaches us that not all faith is saving faith. Some may have a short of faith that is not saving faith in which “...they that are sown upon rocky places, who, when they have heard the word, straightway receive it with joy; and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway they stumble [or fall away].” (Mark 4:16-17 ASV)

These had a temporary faith, a faith that was not solid and firm.

The Second London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) refers to those who fall away from the faith and thus were never saved in the first place as “temporary believers.”

“Although temporary Believers, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes, and carnal presumptions, of being in the favour of God, and state of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish; yet such as truely believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity...may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of Grace...” (Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chap. XVIII: Of the Assurance of Grace and of Salvation, paragraph 1)

The whole number of the elect will most surely be saved and not fall away unto perdition.

“Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and Sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his Elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without Repentance, (whence he still begets and nourisheth in them Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality) and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastned upon: notwithstanding through unbelief and the temptations of Satan the sensible sight of the light and love of God, may for a time be clouded, and obscured from them, yet he is still the same and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto Salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all Eternity.” (Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chap. XVII: Of Perseverance of the Saints, paragraph 1)

“They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and
sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the
state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.” (The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chap. XVII: Of the Perseverance of the Saints, paragraph 1)

Those who receive the word and bear much fruit are those who receive it in true faith, the faith of God’s elect. Matthew’s account identifies those who bear much fruit as being those who understand the word.

“And he that was shown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” (Matthew 13:23 ASV)

"The parable of the sower teaches us that not all faith is saving faith." Oh? Well if you mean like faith in a false god then I agree. But please, what do you mean here?

 

[OldArmy]

I have seen many a person butcher that parable. Especially Arminians. If that parable is what you hang your theology upon, then you are living on really shakey ground.

You should perhaps, work on your people skills. You don't know me, or what I believe (other than what I have posted), what I have experienced or why.

And honestly, this back and forth with Calvinist gets very tiresome because it seems like they get lost in the theology and intellectual side and forget about the love your neighbor part.

 

[Jeremiah 6:16]

I acknowledge that men do resist the Holy Spirit. I acknowledge there is a sense in which the non-elect (reprobate) are called to salvation. This is God’s universal call, His universal offer of forgiveness and command to repent and believe to all men. All do not receive the gospel in saving faith.

The Calvinistic understanding of the parable of the sower (Mark 4:1-20) says that those who are identified as being sown on good soil and bear fruit are the elect whom God effectually calls and grants saving faith.

The parable of the sower teaches us that not all faith is saving faith. Some may have a short of faith that is not saving faith in which “...they that are sown upon rocky places, who, when they have heard the word, straightway receive it with joy; and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway they stumble [or fall away].” (Mark 4:16-17 ASV)

These had a temporary faith, a faith that was not solid and firm.

The Second London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) refers to those who fall away from the faith and thus were never saved in the first place as “temporary believers.”

“Although temporary Believers, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes, and carnal presumptions, of being in the favour of God, and state of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish; yet such as truely believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity...may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of Grace...” (Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chap. XVIII: Of the Assurance of Grace and of Salvation, paragraph 1)

The whole number of the elect will most surely be saved and not fall away unto perdition.

“Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and Sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his Elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without Repentance, (whence he still begets and nourisheth in them Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality) and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastned upon: notwithstanding through unbelief and the temptations of Satan the sensible sight of the light and love of God, may for a time be clouded, and obscured from them, yet he is still the same and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto Salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all Eternity.” (Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chap. XVII: Of Perseverance of the Saints, paragraph 1)

“They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and
sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the
state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.” (The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chap. XVII: Of the Perseverance of the Saints, paragraph 1)

Those who receive the word and bear much fruit are those who receive it in true faith, the faith of God’s elect. Matthew’s account identifies those who bear much fruit as being those who understand the word.

“And he that was shown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” (Matthew 13:23 ASV)

I like how you said not all faith is saving faith. You can be close to the cross but far from the blood.

 

[David Kent]

Both of those answers would be wrong. The reason we are justified and born again is because of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Nothing else.

Do you realise what you are saying? Are you a universalist?

 

[Jeremiah 6:16]

Do you realise what you are saying? Are you a universalist?

That's what I'm wondering.

 

[David Kent]

One invites people to believe, the other doesn't care if you do or don't. If you don't, oh well vessel made for destruction for his glory.

That is a LIE.

 

[Particular]

You should perhaps, work on your people skills. You don't know me, or what I believe (other than what I have posted), what I have experienced or why.

And honestly, this back and forth with Calvinist gets very tiresome because it seems like they get lost in the theology and intellectual side and forget about the love your neighbor part.

I simply stated that I have seen people butcher that parable, after you cryptically told me to read it. You are right. I don't know your interpretation of the parable of the sower.

 

[Jeremiah 6:16]

Does anyone here believe that God first has to open a human being's eyes to their sin and depraved nature before they can be saved? Like an ultimatum from God letting you know without Salvation you will be sent to Hell? Then that human being must seek God for salvation, which is repenting and putting faith in Christ for salvation, being born again? That seemed to happen to king David Psalm 116, and me personally. Seems like everyone gets caught up in the idea that they have faith, but they've never been saved by the "living God" personally by the Holy Spirit. Everyone justifies them self yet no one ever says the Lord saved me, all I hear is I'm saved because of my faith. Yet Psalms says to tell about what the Lord did for you "Salvation" not what you are doing for God. Just thoughts going through my head as I read these posts. I gotta eat "I'll be back."

 

[Reformed1689]

Does anyone here believe that God first has to open a human being's eyes to their sin and depraved nature before they can be saved? Like an ultimatum from God letting you know without Salvation you will be sent to Hell? Then that human being must seek God for salvation, which is repenting and putting faith in Christ for salvation, being born again? That seemed to happen to king David Psalm 116, and me personally. Seems like everyone gets caught up in the idea that they have faith, but they've never been saved by the "living God" personally by the Holy Spirit. Everyone justifies them self yet no one ever says the Lord saved me, all I hear is I'm saved because of my faith. Yet Psalms says to tell about what the Lord did for you "Salvation" not what you are doing for God. Just thoughts going through my head as I read these posts. I gotta eat "I'll be back."

You will find, as you stick around, that there are both camps on this issue present on this board.

 

[OldArmy]

That is a LIE.

Oh? In what way did I lie?

 

[Reformed1689]

Oh? In what way did I lie?

By saying one side doesn't care if you believe or not because it is already determined. That is not what we preach and yes, it is a lie.

 

[kyredneck]

If faith is predestined

Faith is not predestined, people are. 'Predestine' is found only four times in the scriptures and is ALWAYS in reference to God choosing a people for His own possession.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1