if you don’t make $200,000, you don’t matter

[Eric B]

Well, in this case, we're not even talking about those who "just won't work" at all. Billwald apparently works, but the comment made treats him as if he didn't.

 

[dwmoeller1]

Dueteronomy 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

Leviticus 26: 30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.
34 These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

Need we talk about the widows offering just a little but Christ said it was the best He had seen.

So where does it exclude the poor from giving, it does say that out of what was given by those who had more the poor would be taken care of. So that is what our taxes do help the truly poor, the problem we have is that many of the poor could go out and work most choose to live off of others.
Some who are handicapped and need assitiance can't get it.

1. I didn't say that the poor shouldn't give- I merely point out the fact that they weren't required to tithe under OT law.

2. The widows mite was not a tithe but a free will offering. Tithes only were done on flocks and crops. Those who had no crops or flocks had nothing to tithe. So if one was a tradesman in town, a fisherman or was poor enough to own no flocks or land, one did not tithe under the Law.

3. This however did not exclude other forms if giving. They just weren't the 10% off-the-top and required by law sorts of giving. My argument was solely to counter the suggestion that such a tax can rightly be compared to the tithe.

 

[dwmoeller1]

So you are saying that anyone with excess income should pay it to the Governemnet in taxes. Jesus said give unto Ceaser what is Ceasers and what is God's to God. So if the Government (Ceaser) takes God's portion too then what are we to do?

No not at all. I just point out the fact that a straight 10% tax on everyone
A. Finds no precedence in OT law. Quite the opposite in fact.
B. Is not equitable or just. In fact, I would go so far as to say that a government which places a burdensome tax on it's poor is an oppressive government.

 

[targus]

Wow, maybe I missed something but that's a pretty harsh generalization.

Not a generalization at all.

It's based on his own admissions made here on the board numerous times.

 

[preacher4truth]

http://toomuchonline.org/madison-ave-declares-mass-affluence-over/

"A small plutocracy of wealthy elites drives a larger and larger share of total consumer spending and has outsize purchasing influence."

Shucks. We fell a little short of 200k last year.

 

[targus]

If you check the record, you will see that Targus isn't especially fond of BillWald.

Not billwald in particular but more a class of people who want to coast along doing the minimum while complaining about the success of those who aren't afraid to take a risk and work hard to excell.

 

[revmwc]

No not at all. I just point out the fact that a straight 10% tax on everyone
A. Finds no precedence in OT law. Quite the opposite in fact.
B. Is not equitable or just. In fact, I would go so far as to say that a government which places a burdensome tax on it's poor is an oppressive government.

So how is it not fair and just for all to pay 10% of their income? Most of the poor pay no income tax at all which leaves the middle class to shoulder their burden and the upper class even more. Look at the tax % the upper class pays, why should they or the middle class have to assume the burden of paying these taxes?
They work just as hard to earn as the poor some maybe even more.

A fair flat tax and cut the pork barrel spending would get our economy rolling, right now the corporate tax rate in America is so high it has driven many companies out of this nation. Yet the Dem's are wanting to rais it higher. We are second highest in the world today with corporate income tax, and the elite Dem's and Rep's in congress get by with not even paying theirs when they passed the law. They find many ways to exclude themselves.

A flat tax would give them no loophole either. It would be fair to all.

 

[revmwc]

What I want to know is why they set it at those of us who make $200,000 and above as being rich?

I remember my Uncle wanting to make his first million because a million represented the wealthy back in the 70's.

 

[targus]

What I want to know is why they set it at those of us who make $200,000 and above as being rich?

Because that is where those who make a living off class warfare calculated the cut off that will get sufficient numbers below that amount to vote for them by promising to stick it to "the rich".

 

[dwmoeller1]

So how is it not fair and just for all to pay 10% of their income? Most of the poor pay no income tax at all which leaves the middle class to shoulder their burden and the upper class even more. Look at the tax % the upper class pays, why should they or the middle class have to assume the burden of paying these taxes?
They work just as hard to earn as the poor some maybe even more.

Because the tax on the poor is taking money away from necessities. As to them not paying taxes the poor may not pay a direct income tax but they do pay a sizable portion of thru income in sales tax, not to mention the indirect tax of higher prices when the other classes pass on the cost of their income tax.

A tax that ignores the basic cost of basic living is unjust and unfair. And FWIW all serious "fair tax"'proposals provide exemptions or "prebates" on spending below the poverty level.

Why don't we go to a 10% accross the board tax for all. Then those in the lower earning portion would pay the same percentage of taxes. Most of them pay no taxes at all. not force someone to choose between meeting neccesities and paying a tax.

Most of the poor already have difficulty meeting necessities. And the have essentially no reserve so an emergency can put them in the hole even deeper. Taking away another 10% turns a hard job into an impossible one. That or force them onto the dole.

A fair flat tax and cut the pork barrel spending would get our economy rolling, right now the corporate tax rate in America is so high it has driven many companies out of this nation. Yet the Dem's are wanting to rais it higher. We are second highest in the world today with corporate income tax, and the elite Dem's and Rep's in congress get by with not even paying theirs when they passed the law. They find many ways to exclude themselves.

A 10% tax on the poor will have a negligible affect on revenues but a huge impact on the poor.

A flat tax would give them no loophole either. It would be fair to all.

Fair only if you ignore the sort of thing being taxed. If someone is making barely enough (or less) to get by, the 10% you take from them is actually worth a lot more to them than the 10% you take from someone's excess.

 

[revmwc]

Because the tax on the poor is taking money away from necessities. As to them not paying taxes the poor may not pay a direct income tax but they do pay a sizable portion of thru income in sales tax, not to mention the indirect tax of higher prices when the other classes pass on the cost of their income tax.

A tax that ignores the basic cost of basic living is unjust and unfair. And FWIW all serious "fair tax"'proposals provide exemptions or "prebates" on spending below the poverty level.



Most of the poor already have difficulty meeting necessities. And the have essentially no reserve so an emergency can put them in the hole even deeper. Taking away another 10% turns a hard job into an impossible one. That or force them onto the dole.



A 10% tax on the poor will have a negligible affect on revenues but a huge impact on the poor.



Fair only if you ignore the sort of thing being taxed. If someone is making barely enough (or less) to get by, the 10% you take from them is actually worth a lot more to them than the 10% you take from someone's excess.

You might need to define poor, poor as in indigent or poor as in don't make that much in salary. Also again when the rich pay less in taxes they tend to purchase more goods. Who makes and sell those goods, middle class and poor and who benefits from increased sales? The poor who now have more to spend because of the raises they get, the middle class who get raises and the business owner from profits. Trickle down economy works just look at how well it worked under Reagan. I bet there are many in here who can tell you during the Reagan years the economy was the strongest it had been in many years and the best it ever was since he left office.
You seem to think the poor don't have much. Again define poor, many classified as poor own a home a car have two or three televisions and may even have basic cable. Some may even have a computer, that is not poor.

Let me tell you poor, my grandmother was poor, owned one house but sold it worked for pennies an hour and raised 6 kids as a widow. She never had a savings and never saved for retirement. She always had a roof over her head and food on her table. She was dirt poor. My other grandparents much better they did own the house they lived in my grandfather built it. Then he developed parkinsons disease and my grandmother worked in the school caferteria. They were able with his disability to have a TV and a car, but my parents and my aunts and uncles helped them out. They were dirt poor. But they were proud and believed in working hard for what they got. When they borrowed even from family they paid it back.

So don't even try to tell me that a flat tax will hurt the poor. Because a proud poor person finds ways to make it. My Dad climbed out of poverety and became middle class, so did my mom's siblings and most of my Dad's siblings, all climb out of the poor hle and used opportunities to advance from poverty. It can be done If you give folks the opportunity and they will find the means.

 

[billwald]

$200K isn't rich. It is a family with two working class adults with good union jobs making lots of overtime.

The BIG difference between a person making 20K and making 200million is that the person making 20K will spend most every cent every year trying to stay alive. The guy making 200 million will probably save 100 million a year. The guy making 20K is lucky if he has a paid off house in 40 years. The rich guy has $40,000,000,000 plus compound interest after 40 years. Is that "fair?"

 

[revmwc]

$200K isn't rich. It is a family with two working class adults with good union jobs making lots of overtime.

The BIG difference between a person making 20K and making 200million is that the person making 20K will spend most every cent every year trying to stay alive. The guy making 200 million will probably save 100 million a year. The guy making 20K is lucky if he has a paid off house in 40 years. The rich guy has $40,000,000,000 plus compound interest after 40 years. Is that "fair?"

Yes if both earned it that is fair. If one scoundered opportunities to come out better in life then he came out like he did. Still fair because of choices made. Anyone can climb out of poverty if they make good choices of what they have. They both used what God blessed them with and God is always fair.

Some of us folks make $200,000 a year or close to that with just one person working and many non-union. All we have is God's and it all belongs to Him, Job said it best "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, Blessed be the name of the Lord." Problem we have now is the Government wants to take more and more of what God blesses us with, limiting what we can give to God now. No wonder we are in the shape we are.

 

[dwmoeller1]

You might need to define poor, poor as in indigent or poor as in don't make that much in salary.

The Federal poverty threshold is decently objective standard to go by.

Also again when the rich pay less in taxes they tend to purchase more goods. Who makes and sell those goods, middle class and poor and who benefits from increased sales? The poor who now have more to spend because of the raises they get, the middle class who get raises and the business owner from profits. Trickle down economy works just look at how well it worked under Reagan. I bet there are many in here who can tell you during the Reagan years the economy was the strongest it had been in many years and the best it ever was since he left office.

I won't dispute any of this. However the rich paying lower taxes and the poor paying no taxes are not mutually exclusive. For instance, the households who's earnings are in the top 20% earn on average ~15 times more than those in the lowest 20%. So if we went to a 10% income tax those in the top 20% could pay the 10% of the lowest 20% by increasing the percent they pay by ~0.67%. iOW one could exempt the poor from taxes the top earners could cover the loss by increasing their tax burden by an amount they wouldn't even notice.

So don't even try to tell me that a flat tax will hurt the poor. Because a proud poor person finds ways to make it. My Dad climbed out of poverety and became middle class, so did my mom's siblings and most of my Dad's siblings, all climb out of the poor hle and used opportunities to advance from poverty. It can be done If you give folks the opportunity and they will find the means.

1. That someone may survive regardless of a tax does not mean that the tax didn't hurt them.

2. I also note that your dad didn't pay federal income tax while he was poor. Our tax system has always made allowances for the poor. How much more difficult would have been if he had had 10% less to do with? Don't tell me it wouldn't have hurt him.

 

[billwald]

The logical result of the flat tax is the few billionaires and 100 millionaires in existence when the tax goes into effect will end up owning most all the land and infrastructure in the US. How can it be otherwise? Rich people don't hold cash. They buy stuff.