I made the comment that the word if doesn't always mean if, but sometimes since. Where did I say specifically in this passage it is not "if?" I didn't. That's why I shared the word "ei" not "ean."
Also, the word if is not in the NASB here at this verse. It is better interpreted "unless." It then doesn't mean if. It is better rendered unless.
Sometimes "if" in context can mean "since" which is synonyous and more popularly used than "forasmuch."
So you're saying this word if here proves free will? Is that your argument?
IF You Hold Gospel is To ALL men: Interprete John 8:42-47!
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jul 13, 2011.
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:BangHead::tonofbricks::BangHead: -
I made a passing comment, he's been on a rampage ever since. -
There is no IF in Calvinism concerning salvation, a person who is elect will irresistably believe and be saved, an unelect person cannot possibly believe and be saved.
You KNOW all of this. -
I never attempted to establish any doctrine off of this verse.
I made a passing statement that "if" sometimes means "since."
Then you went on your rant of hatred for calvinist brethren.
Like I said, and it stands, and is proven here, you think someone said thus and so, and go on a rant not even close to what one meant. I think your anger blinds your eyes and your fingers start typing before you actually comprehend. You've said you're an angry person, I've seen this myself. Calm down a lot, OK?
Now get to proving the word if here means and proves free-will.
- Peace -
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Pay attention. Nothing I've stated was to support any theology. Go show me which argument I am allegedly supporting. You can't. -
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If Calvinism is true, there is no question as to whether a person will believe or not. The elect will irresistably believe, the unelect cannot possibly believe, a person's fate is sealed in stone by God himself.
And if anyone would know this, Jesus would know this better than anybody. There is no room for questionable words like IF in Calvinism concerning salvation.
Words have meaning. "If" means there is option, so does "unless" or "except". -
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eh-an'
From G1487 and G302; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty: - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever). See G3361.
The condition of uncertainty here can also refer to the fact that not everyone always believes. It does not have to point to a condition of free will. That is to read into scripture what is not certain. -
But that's the point, you have the option or possibility of debating me or not. That's what the word if means. A few examples;
I often travel south to see my Mom. I will call her as I travel and say, "Mom, IF all goes well, I will be there by six." Why do I say "if"? Because I might get stuck in heavy traffic and be delayed.
Or, I might call home and say, "I will be home at 3 "unless" they ask me to work overtime."
And "except" means the same as "unless" although it is an older term not used as much today as in the past.
But all of these words, if, unless, and except show something is questionable, that options are available and possible, it is not an absolute certainty. I might get caught in traffic and not arrive at my Mom's house till seven, or I might be asked to work over and not get home till five.
And you might debate me, or possibly you won't, that is why I said I won't lose sleep IF you decide not to debate me.
What is truly pathetic is all of you know what IF means, yet you try to redefine it. -
If Calvinism were true, Jesus would have known for an absolute certainty they could not possibly believe and would not have applied either "if" or "unless" to it.
You guys would argue with a brick wall, doesn't make you right. Believe what you want to believe. -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1705732&postcount=13
Hence, the trouble you later found yourself in when Winman posted the definition of the word.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1706226&postcount=51
Blessings -
Calvinism cannot find support in scripture. This is why Calvinists must constantly redefine words. Non-Cals do not have to do this, the natural understanding of scripture supports it. -
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The plain truth is easy to be found. :thumbs: -
I never said that John 8:24 should be the word since. You're on this track to prove scholarship in John 8:24 doesn't support something I've never said, that you misunderstand. Also, the context doesn't support it to be "since" and this is what you think I am saying. I simply was making a point that it isn't always what it seems. It definitely doesn't prove man has free-will. -
You miss my point. By the way the word "if" doesn't prove free-will, and perhaps "unless" they believe, they are not His Sheep. In other words not believing proves one not to be of His fold.
- Peace
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