Agree. The role of extended family is a critical piece of the puzzle. This is one area that the Amish and Mennonites do it right. The young adults are independent but property is shared in a way that benefits the young couple just getting started and later the old folks. There is a gradual transfer of ownership and responsibility from old to young.
And speaking of families, it just so happens that I received a new book today "The Westminster Confession and Standards" published by Free Presbyterian Press. I've been somewhat familiar with the Westminster for some years now, but this is the first time I've seen the preface, introduction, annexes, so forth. And it has been quite surprising to see how this great document of Church doctrine and polity was addressed to "the heads of families" and sets down from the very first page the importance of family worship. It seems the devil was attacking the Family in the 1600's just like he does today.
Surely, if we could get our families right, a lot of other things would get straightened out too. But to get families back to where they should be today would take the greatest revival in history.
If your gross income is only 8,000 a year should you still pay tithes?
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by mattjtayl, Sep 30, 2008.
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Annually, those who tithed were to bring their crops and livestock to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles. Here, they ate their own tithes and shared them with Levites.
New Testament terms for giving money or anything else are charity, generosity, liberality, abundance, gifts, etc.
Referring to Christian acts of giving as "tithing" results in confusion, because there is absolutely nowhere in the Bible that could even begin to indicate any possible kind of obligation in any form for Christians to "tithe" or that it has anything to do with giving money or that it has anything to do with the church. -
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I say, Trust God!
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Tiny Tim is exactly right in this thread. :thumbs:
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Aresman: I had some questions for you but I see you answered most of them in your reply to mattjtayl. I need to check it out but I thought there was some provision for tithing in money in the OT. Also, if you compare the agrarian economy of Isreal with the cash/wage-based economy of today, you'll see why I say that tithing (or porportional giving, if you prefer) should be based on expendable income. Expendable income can be roughly equated to the "increase" of the fields.
Other than that, I have to prettymuch agree with what you said. -
We should never give under compultion (tithing), but rather joyfully, what each one purposes in their heart, for God loves a cheerfull giver.
(straight from the scripture, of course.)
:godisgood: -
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1. Instead of giving one's tithe of crops, one could "redeem" this tithe by giving instead its value in money plus 20%. The tithe of the livestock could not be redeemed because animals were needed by the priests for burnt offerings.
2. During the annual tithe feasts (the Feast of Tabernacles), everyone came to Jerusalem for food, fun, and fellowship. All tithers had to bring their tithes to eat there and share them with the Levites. If they lived far away from Jerusalem, making lugging a tenth of their crops and livestock burdensome, they could sell the tithe for money, carry the money there, and buy back titheable commodities.
The idea that the economy and culture of this time was primarily agrarian, and that therefore we today are supposed to tithe money is not correct. The culture at that time was fully monetary, and the Israelites continued to tithe only crops and livestock (Mat 23:23; Luk 11:42) all the way until the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. The fact that the tithe laws were for crops and livestock has nothing to do with the economy and culture of Israel, but from God's purpose in the Holy Land. The tithe laws only applied to national Israel, just like the Levitical priesthood only applied to national Israel. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about tithing that in any way applied to Christians: there is no money tithing, and there is no church tithing.
New Testament giving has nothing to do with the tithe laws in any way, shape, or form. It is not even a succession or cancelation of the tithe laws. It is a completely different issue--apples and oranges. The tithe was the legal agricultural tax and welfare system of the nation of Israel. New Testament giving is individual Christians giving money, time, food, or whatever to meet needs in the church or anywhere. There is no correlation or overlap of any kind. -
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matt,
Welcome to BB. :wavey:
You see, the Jews were there own government and it was by the tithe that welfare was administered to the poor and infirm. Did those poor have to pay in? Well, no.
Of all the OT law, the one law that the church can't seem to say is "dead" is the tithe. The early church set up a socialist-style economy that said "from each according to his ability to each according to his need." They overdid it but the idea is a) give as the Spirit moves and b) stop dragging Christians back under the law.
skypair -
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When we first started going to church and were saved we had 2 young children and less then $8,000 a year, and we still gave. God taught us to trust Him with our money.
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Deu 14:22 You shall truly tithe all the increase of your seed that the field brings forth year by year.
Deu 14:23 And you shall eat before Jehovah your God in the place which He shall choose to place His name there, the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the first-born of your herds and of your flocks, so that you may learn to fear Jehovah your God always
Deu 14:24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry it, or if the place is too far from you, which Jehovah your God shall choose to set His name there, when Jehovah your God has blessed you,
Deu 14:25 then you shall turn it into silver and bind up the silver in your hand, and shall go to the place which Jehovah your God shall choose. Deu 14:26 And you shall pay that silver for whatever your soul desires, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatever your soul desires. And you shall eat there before Jehovah your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household
I think next time I'm on vacation I'll spend my "tithe" money on whiskey and women.:laugh:
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Grasshopper said:Any NT references for this? Surley Paul or Jesus would have spent much time teaching this if it was necessary for a relationship.
Very nice, but where is the concept found in the NT? Are you to follow all the Laws concerning OT Israel? If not, why not?
Who robbed God in the context of Mal. 3:8? Did the pastor leave that out?
If you insist one has to tithe it is up to you to prove it from scripture. I think what you'll find is that it cannot be supported from scripture. So where is it said that in order to have a reloationship with God you must tithe?Click to expand...Click to expand... -
superwoman8977 said:Life is not all about the NT.Click to expand...
When I read that passage in Malachi it struck a chord with me. I am robbing God. I am the person that He is talking about in Malachi 3:8-10Click to expand...
I am the one with my hand out and what am I giving to God in return? The bible is the Word of the Lord and whether OT or NT tithing is an important part of the relationship with Him.Click to expand...
Pastor did not leave anything out of his message.Click to expand...
In all essence his message as well as his reference to Malachi 3:8-10 really made me think, I think made everyone think in that room. I know my church back home has been there for me and my parents on countless occasions, why would I not want to give back to them.Click to expand...
If we dont tithe we dont have a church. Our churches run on our tithes thats how God set all this up.Click to expand...
By the way, if the Church was to rely on tithes then it would be in deep trouble. Where would the farmers drop off their grain offerings at?Click to expand... -
superwoman8977 said:When I read that passage in Malachi it struck a chord with me. I am robbing God. I am the person that He is talking about in Malachi 3:8-10 I am the one with my hand out and what am I giving to God in return?Click to expand...
Mal 1:6 ...saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name? [Question 1 from the priests to God]
Mal 1:7 Ye [priests] offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? [Question 2 from the priests to God]...
Mal 1:8 And if ye [priests] offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye [priests] offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 1:13 ...and ye [priests] brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.
Mal 1:14 But cursed [2:1-3, 3:9] be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing....
Mal 2:1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
Mal 2:2 If ye will not hear...I will even send a curse upon you [priests], and I will curse your [priests'] blessings: yea, I have cursed them already [1:14, 3:9], because ye [priests] do not lay it to heart.
Mal 2:4 And ye [priests] shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they [the people] should seek the law at his [priest's] mouth: for he [the priest] is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:8 But ye [priests] are departed out of the way; ye [priests] have caused many to stumble at the law; ye [priests] have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:9 Therefore have I also made you [priests] contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye [priests] have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers [with Levi (2:4)]?
Mal 2:11 Judah [the kingdom, not the tribe] hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah [the kingdom] hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.
Mal 2:12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar [scribes and priests], out of the tabernacles [where burnt offerings are made] of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:13 And this have ye [priests] done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.
Mal 2:14 Yet ye [priests] say, Wherefore? [Question 3 from the priests to God] Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou [priest] hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
Mal 2:17 Ye [priests] have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye [priests] say, Wherein have we wearied him? [Question 4 from the priests to God] When ye [priests] say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment? [Question 5 from the priests to God]
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye [priests] seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant [2:4,8], whom ye [priests] delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi [priests], and purge them [the priests] as gold and silver, that they [the priests] may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem [where the priests minister] be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you [priests] to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers [priests (2:7-9)], and against the adulterers [priests (2:11-14)], and against false swearers [priests (2:7-9)], and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless [priests/scribes/Pharisees (Matt 23:2,14)], and that turn aside the stranger from his right [priests/scribes/Pharisees (Matt 23:2,15)], and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob [priests] are not consumed.
Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye [priests] are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them [2:8-9]. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye [priests] said, Wherein shall we return? [Question 6 from the priests to God]
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye [priests] have robbed me. But ye [priests] say, Wherein have we robbed thee? [Question 7 from the priests to God] In tithes [Neh 13:1-12] and offerings [Mal 1,2].
Mal 3:9 Ye [priests] are cursed with a curse [1:14; 2:1-3]: for ye [priests] have robbed me, even [ye have robbed] this whole nation [Neh 13:1-12].
Mal 3:10 Bring ye [priests] all the [third-year] tithes into the storehouse [(not, Eliashib's chamber)], that there may be meat [food, not money] in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven [rain], and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightful land, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:13 Your [priests'] words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye [priests] say, What have we spoken so much against thee? [Question 7 from the priests to God]
Mal 3:14 Ye [priests] have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts? [Question 8 from the priests to God]Click to expand...
The priests were robbing God in tithes by stealing them from their Levite brethren and the poor by routing them from the public storehouse chambers in the Temple to their own private chambers (Neh 10, 13).
The priests were robbing God in burnt offerings by offering polluted bread and blemished animals on the altars in the Temple. They brought offerings, but God did not accept them (Mal 1,2).
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