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Immortal Soul/Spirit Theology, Part Of The False Gospel, Practicers Of Necromancy

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by One Baptism, Jul 14, 2017.

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  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    God is not God of the dead, but of the living (Mark 12:27). For the second time, 'Then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it' (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
     
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Your big problem is that you are trying to get theology and doctrines from a known false prophetess!
     
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  3. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Here is the quotation

    "... MAN was made in the image of God. “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him.” Genesis 1:26, 27. See also chap. 9:6; 1 Corinthians 11:7. Those who deny the personality of God, say that “image” here does not mean physical form, but moral image, and they make this the grand starting point to prove the immortality of all men. The argument stands thus: First, man was made in God’s moral image. Second, God is an immortal being. Third, therefore all men are immortal. But this mode of reasoning would also prove man omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, and thus clothe mortal man with all the attributes of the deity. Let us try it: First, man was made in God’s moral image. Second, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Third, therefore, man is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. That which proves too much, proves nothing to the point, therefore the position that the image of God means his moral image, cannot be sustained. As proof that God is a person, read his own words to Moses: “And the Lord said, Behold there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock; and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by. And I will take away mine hand and thou shalt see my back parts; but my face shall not be seen.” Exodus 33:21-23. See also chap. 24:9-11. Here God tells Moses that he shall see his form. To say that God made it appear to Moses that he saw his form, when he has no form, is charging God with adding to falsehood a sort of juggling deception upon his servant Moses.

    But the skeptic thinks he sees a contradiction between verse 11, which says that the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, and verse 20, which states that Moses could not see his face. But let Numbers 12:5-8 remove the difficulty. “And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam, and they both came forth. And he said, Hear now my words. If there be a prophet among you, I, the Lord, will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently.”

    The great and dreadful God came down, wrapped in a cloud of glory. This cloud could be seen, but not the face which possesses more dazzling brightness than a thousand suns. Under these circumstances Moses was permitted to draw near and converse with God face to face, or mouth to mouth, even apparently.

    Says the prophet Daniel, “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hairs of his head like the pure wool; his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.” Chap. 7:9. “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him, and there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom.” Verses 13, 14.

    Here is a sublime description of the action of two personages; viz, God the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ. Deny their personality, and there is not a distinct idea in these quotations from Daniel. In connection with this quotation read the apostle’s declaration that the Son was in the express image of his Father’s person. “God, who at sundry times, and in divers manners, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person.” Hebrews 1:1-3.

    We here add the testimony of Christ. “And the Father himself which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.” John 5:37. See also Philippians 2:6. To say that the Father has not a personal shape, seems the most pointed contradiction of plain scripture terms. OBJECTION. - “God is a Spirit.” John 4:24.

    ANSWER. - Angels are also spirits [Psalm 104:4], yet those that visited Abram and Lot, lay down, ate, and took hold of Lot’s hand. They were spirit beings. So is God a Spirit being.

    OBJ. - God is everywhere. Proof. Psalm 139:1-8. He is as much in every place as in any one place.

    ANS. - 1. God is everywhere by virtue of his omniscience, as will be seen by the very words of David referred to above. Verses 1-6. “O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising; thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thy hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is high; I cannot attain unto it.” ..."

    ...to be continued ...
     
  4. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    ... continued quotation ...

    "... 2. God is everywhere by virtue of his Spirit, which is his representative, and is manifested wherever he pleases, as will be seen by the very words the objector claims, referred to above. Verses 7-10. “Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.”

    God is in heaven. This we are taught in the Lord’s prayer. “Our Father which art in heaven.” Matthew 6:9; Luke 11:2. But if God is as much in every place as he is in any one place, then heaven is also as much in every place as it is in any one place, and the idea of going to heaven is all a mistake. We are all in heaven; and the Lord’s prayer, according to this foggy theology simply means, Our Father which art everywhere, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is everywhere.

    Again, Bible readers have believed that Enoch and Elijah were really taken up to God in heaven. But if God and heaven be as much in every place as in any one place, this is all a mistake. They were not translated. And all that is said about the chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and the attending whirlwind to take Elijah up into heaven, was a useless parade. They only evaporated, and a misty vapor passed through the entire universe. This is all of Enoch and Elijah that the mind can possibly grasp, admitting that God and heaven are no more in any one place than in every place. But it is said of Elijah that he “went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” 2 Kings 2:11. And of Enoch it is said that he “walked with God, and was not, for God took him.” Genesis 5:24.

    Jesus is said to be on the right hand of the Majesty on high.” Hebrews 1:3. “So, then, after the Lord had spoken unto them he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.” Mark 16:19. But if heaven be everywhere, and God everywhere, then Christ’s ascension up to heaven, at the Father’s right hand, simply means that he went everywhere! He was only taken up where the cloud hid him from the gaze of his disciples, and then evaporated and went everywhere! So that instead of the lovely Jesus, so beautifully described in both Testaments, we have only a sort of essence dispersed through the entire universe. And in harmony with this rarified theology, Christ’s second advent, or his return, would be the condensation of this essence to some locality, say the mount of Olivet! Christ arose from the dead with a physical form. “He is not here,” said the angel, “for he is risen as he said.” Matthew 28:6.

    “And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail! And they came and held him by the feet, and they worshiped him.” Verse 9.

    “Behold my hands and my feet,” said Jesus to those who stood in doubt of his resurrection, “that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honey-comb, and he took it and did eat before them.” Luke 24:39-43.

    After Jesus addressed his disciples on the mount of Olivet, he was taken up from them, and a cloud received him out of their sight. “And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel, which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11. J. W. ..."

    ... to be continued ...​
     
  5. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    ... continued quotation ...

    "...IMMATERIALITY

    THIS is but another name for nonentity. It is the negative of all things and beings - of all existence. There is not one particle of proof to be advanced to establish its existence. It has no way to manifest itself to any intelligence in heaven or on earth. Neither God, angels, nor men could possibly conceive of such a substance, being, or thing. It possesses no property or power by which to make itself manifest to any intelligent being in the universe. Reason and analogy never scan it, or even conceive of it. Revelation never reveals it, nor do any of our senses witness its existence. It cannot be seen, felt, heard, tasted, or smelled, even by the strongest organs, or the most acute sensibilities. It is neither liquid nor solid, soft nor hard - it can neither extend nor contract. In short, it can exert no influence whatever - it can neither act nor be acted upon. And even if it does exist, it can be of no possible use. It possesses no one, desirable property, faculty, or use, yet, strange to say, immateriality is the modern Christian’s God, his anticipated heaven, his immortal self - his all!

    O sectarianism! O atheism!! O annihilation!!!

    who can perceive the nice shades of difference between the one and the other? They seem alike, all but in name. The atheist has no God. The sectarian has a God without body or parts. Who can define the difference? For our part we do not perceive a difference of a single hair; they both claim to be the negative of all things which exist - and both are equally powerless and unknown.

    The atheist has no after life, or conscious existence beyond the grave. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial, like his God; and without body or parts. Here again both are negative, and both arrive at the same point. Their faith and hope amount to the same; only it is expressed by different terms.

    Again, the atheist has no heaven in eternity. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial in all its properties, and is therefore the negative of all riches and substances. Here again they are equal, and arrive at the same point.

    As we do not envy them the possession of all they claim, we will now leave them in the quiet and undisturbed enjoyment of the same, and proceed to examine the portion still left for the despised materialist to enjoy.

    What is God? He is material, organized intelligence, possessing both body and parts. Man is in his image.

    What is Jesus Christ? He is the Son of God, and is like his Father, being “the brightness of his Father’s glory, and the express image of his person.” He is a material intelligence, with body, parts, and passions; possessing immortal flesh and immortal bones.

    What are men? They are the offspring of Adam. They are capable of receiving intelligence and exaltation to such a degree as to be raised from the dead with a body like that of Jesus Christ, and to possess immortal flesh and bones. Thus perfected, they will possess the material universe, that is, the earth, as their “everlasting inheritance.” With these hopes and prospects before us, we say to the Christian world who hold to immateriality, that they are welcome to their God - their life - their heaven, and their all. They claim nothing but that which we throw away; and we claim nothing but that which they throw away. Therefore, there is no ground for quarrel or contention between us.

    We choose all substance - what remains
    The mystical sectarian gains;
    All that each claims, each shall possess,
    Nor grudge each other’s happiness.
    An immaterial God they choose,
    For such a God we have no use;
    An immaterial heaven and hell,
    In such a heaven we cannot dwell.
    We claim the earth, the air, and sky,
    And all the starry worlds on high;
    Gold, silver, ore, and precious stones,
    And bodies made of flesh and bones.
    Such is our hope, our heaven, our all,
    When once redeemed from Adam’s fall;
    All things are ours, and we shall be,
    The Lord’s to all eternity.
    ..." - The Personality of God
    End quotation. Now to the remainder of that which was asked for. I will now show that Luke 16 is a Parable, but by beginning in Luke 14, itself, which will also help us to understand what is going on.
     
  6. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Luke 16, a Parable, let's begin in Luke 14, and walk through ..

    In Luke 14:1:

    And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him. Luke 14:1

    Whose house does the text say that Jesus went into to "eat bread" and on what day was this done and were there any others present besides the owner of the house?

    According to the text, I read that "he" [Jesus] "went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees" to "eat bread" "on the sabbath day" and there were also "they" which "watched" "him" [Jesus].

    Was the multitude [Luke 14:25 KJB] in the house of the chief Pharisees with Jesus as they ate bread on the sabbdath day? "No."

    Who then is this "they" that were with Jesus and the chief Pharisee in his house? If you will allow me, I would like to cite the next six texts of Luke 14:2-7:

    And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy. Luke 14:2

    And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day? Luke 14:3

    And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go; Luke 14:4

    And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day? Luke 14:5

    And they could not answer him again to these things. Luke 14:6

    And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them, Luke 14:7

    According to the text, I read, that there were the following people present in the house of the Chief Pharisee on the sabbath day:

    [1] "The Chief Pharisee", since it was his house and his meal

    [2] "Jesus"

    [3] "a certain man...which had the dropsy..." being "him" who was "healed" by "Jesus"

    [4] "they" which would include 2 specific groups of "those that were bidden" to the meal:

    [4a] "the lawyers"

    [4b] "Pharisees"

    According to the text, I read, that Jesus, after healing the man with the dropsy on the sabbath day, in the house of the chief Pharisee, being also before/in front of the other lawyers and pharisees that were also bidden, spoke "a parable" [singular] unto the pharisees and lawyers present in the house.

    The "parable" [singular] is given to "those" which "were bidden" because of how "Jesus" had seen that "they" when coming in to sit down to eat, "chose out the chief rooms [protoklisias "first class"; places at table]" , is then seen in the next few verses, Luke 14:8-11

    When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him; Luke 14:8

    And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room. Luke 14:9

    But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. Luke 14:10

    For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. Luke 14:11

    Jesus then turns from speaking to "they" that "were bidden" to the Chief Pharisees' house and continues by speaking directly to the Chief Pharisee, whose house it was, and this is seen in the next three verses, Luke 14:12-14:

    Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. Luke 14:12

    But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: Luke 14:13

    And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just. Luke 14:14

    When will such be "recompensed" according to Jesus? At ones death or "at" "the resurrection of the just"?

    According to the text, I read, that such a person as Jesus speaks of would be "recompensed" "at" "the resurrection of the just".

    What do you think of the "recompensed" and timing thereof, in regards to where we are headed in Luke 16? Please let me know.

    Then after Jesus spake those things to the Chief Pharisee, another at the table which heard those things, speaks to Jesus in Luke 14:15:

    And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. Luke 14:15

    To which then "Jesus" replies to this "one of them" who was "bidden" in Luke 14:16-24:

    Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: Luke 14:16

    And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. Luke 14:17

    And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. Luke 14:18

    And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. Luke 14:19

    And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. Luke 14:20

    So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. Luke 14:21

    And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. Luke 14:22

    And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. Luke 14:23

    For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper. Luke 14:24

    Would anyone like to disagree that the material in the passages in Luke 14:16-24 are parable?
     
  7. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Have patience, as is proper, I will get to your replies in their proper order. If you may notice, I am replying to those who responded first, as they replied. Your posts are coming up soon. Merely repeating a post, will not make me move to your reply any faster, and frankly it clogs the flow of the thread with unneeded repetition. Unlike some, I do read the responses in full, and reply to what is given.
     
  8. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    More on Luke 16:

    The Rich Man and Lazarus of Luke 16, comes in a series of Parables after a small discourse to great multitudes really beginning in Luke 14:25

    And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, Luke 14:25

    ... and also in Luke 15:1-2, to tax collectors, sinners who surrounded Him and to Pharisees and Scribes who were complaining...

    Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. Luke 15:1

    And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. Luke 15:2

    ... and as Jesus heard the Pharisees and Scribes complaining and so HE speaks unto them in parables beginning in Luke 15:3

    And he spake this parable unto them, saying, Luke 15:3

    ...and continues with the Parable of the "man with the 100 Sheep who had one lost" from Luke 15:4-7, and then begins another Parable in Luke 15:8-10 about the "Woman who Lost a Coin" Luke 15:11

    [though Jesus is still speaking in Parables, in both instances in the scriptures it does not specifically say that the words to come after verses 8 or 11 were Parable, but yet that is because the scripture had already made clear that this was what Jesus was doing from verse 3]

    And he said, A certain man had two sons: Luke 15:11

    ...which then begins the Parable from Luke 15:11-32 about the "Man who had Two Sons" [Prodigal Sons Parable].

    Jesus then turns to His disciples and continues in Luke 16:1, with yet another parable, the parable of the "God and Mammon"

    And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. Luke 16:1

    ...and the word "also" joins the previous parables with this parable along with what further continues ["they heard all these things"]...now after that Mammon Parable, the Pharisees, being lovers of Money, broke into the series of Parables and derided Jesus in Luke 16:14

    And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. Luke 16:14

    ...but Jesus immediately counters their derision with what the Law says on the matter about Money and Divorce in Luke 16:15-18 and then drives home the point of their hypocrisy and double standard as well as their neglect of duty to being the Light to the Gentiles with the Parable of Luke 16:19-31 in the Parable of the "Rich Man And Lazarus"...

    And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15

    Now that it is established that the "Rich Man and Lazarus" is indeed a Parable, in a series of parables, let us look a little further at some scriptures to be even more and absolutely sure:

    When Jesus spoke of these things to the Pharisees He said that He would speak to them in parable, even in fulfillment of prophecy:

    I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: Psalm 78:2

    And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: Mark 4:11

    And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Luke 8:10

    And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. Luke 16:14

    And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15

    ...This Parable does not start with the words “the Kingdom of Heaven is like...” as it is about the failure of the Nation of Israel, especially the leaders in particular, to be the Light of the world.

    The parable is not giving us a specific picture of an etheral place a person goes immediately after death [for first of all the Judgment must come first, God said that the Wheat and Tares grow together unto the end, then is the Harvest, and then are the Wheat gathered into the Barn and then only are the Tares thrown into the fire, which consumes them into smoke and ashes to be no more, which fire burns upon the whole surface of the earth, their body [made of dust] and whole being [breath plus dust] being cast into the fire all together, at the same time, to be destroyed, perished, not be any more] ...
     
  9. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    To those who teach that Luke 16 cannot be a parable because it uses a proper name, do not know their Bible [KJB], and moreso they make up their own rules for that which may be utilized in a parable, which are not found in scripture [KJB]:

    And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel. Numbers 23:7

    Additionally:

    Mark 4:15 - gives "Satan"

    Matthew 13:37 - gives "The Son of man"

    Matthew 13:39 - gives "The devil" and "angels"

    Matthew 15:13 - gives "heavenly Father"

    2 Samuel 12:7 - gives "[King] David, thou art the man"

    Ezekiel 23:1-4 - gives "Aholah and Aholibah"

    Luke 4:23 - gives as a "proverb" "Physician" to Jesus Himself​

    Besides all this, the NT name of "Lazarus" is simply the Koine Greek form of the Hebrew Eliezer - Abraham's servant in the OT.

    Also, names in the scripture [KJB] have meaning, for the names symbolized the very character:

    Let not my lord, I pray thee, regard this man of Belial, even Nabal: for as his name is, so is he; Nabal is his name, and folly is with him: but I thine handmaid saw not the young men of my lord, whom thou didst send. 1 Samuel 25:25

    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. Proverbs 22:1

    A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth. Ecclesiastes 7:1

    There are only two ways in which our names may be seen, [1] in glorification of self and thus satan or [2] in glorification of God, do we make our name great, or will God make our name great unto His glory?

    [1] self and thus satan: And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. Genesis 11:4

    [2] God: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: Genesis 12:2

    Names throughout the Scripture have meaning, and speak of the essence of the person, being or place or thing, several examples include:

    And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. Genesis 3:20

    And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed. Genesis 5:29

    And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan. Genesis 10:25

    Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. Genesis 11:9

    And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. Genesis 16:11

    Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. Genesis 17:5

    Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham; Nehemiah 9:7

    Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? Genesis 17:17

    And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. Genesis 17:19

    And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? Genesis 18:13

    Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh. Genesis 18:15

    And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me. Genesis 21:6

    And he said, Is not he rightly named Jacob? for he hath supplanted me these two times: he took away my birthright; and, behold, now he hath taken away my blessing. And he said, Hast thou not reserved a blessing for me? Genesis 27:36

    And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. Genesis 35:10

    etc.
    More on the names if necessary, later, I can also show the names in Genesis [Genealogy], Daniel, & Revelation and what they mean in regards the everlasting Gospel itself. Their names reveal the plan of redemption.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ONLY Jesus has a physical form, as he is the God/Man, God forever in a glorified human Body, bu the both Father abd Holy Spiriut are Spirit beings....
     
  11. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    I will pause on Luke 16's parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and come back to it, as time allows, going over the symbols therein, and its meaning, and its further connections to other texts in the scripture [KJB], such as Revelation 3:17, 18:16 and 2 Samuel 12:1,2 etc.

    Let's look at some of the other replies and the texts given in response to the OP's theme, and see how they are in harmony with the OP.
     
  12. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    The scripture of John 11:25 KJB is perfect, and agreed to, and in regards Jesus question therein, my personal answer is, "Yes, with all my heart."

    As stated, and demonstrated in the previous posts, there are differing deaths. The old man of sin (1 John 3:4 KJB) is to die, either now, or later. Then there is the death decree of God from Genesis 2:17 KJB, in which, if Jesus had not stepped in, Adam, Eve and all mankind in them would have perished from existence forever.

    Jesus split death, into two, a first (sleep in the grave, earth, etc. to await a resurrection, Job 3:13,17,18, 17:13,16; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:1; Matthew 8:24; Mark 5:39; Luke 8:52, 20:38; John 11:11; Acts 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:51; 1 Thessalonians 4:14, 5:10; Revelation 6:11, 14:13 KJB) and a second death (annihilation, Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8; Jude 1:12; Psalms 37:10; Daniel 2:35; Revelation 20:11 KJB, etc)

    John 11, is tied to resurrection, in at least two ways, the physical (Job 14:12 KJB, etc) and the spiritual (see for both, Ephesians 5:14; John 5; Acts 23; John 11; Romans 13:11 KJB. etc).

    Jesus is speaking context about the physical resurrection of Lazarus, whom Jesus said was a "sleep" (thus not "de[ad]" (John 11:4 KJB), not dead unto the second death, without hope of life, which shall be the reward of the finally impenitent.)

    The glory of God (John 11:25-26,40 KJB) is the resurrected life, in Christ Jesus. This reveals God's glory, a life without sin, dead to the old man, the stoney heart rolled away, and the new birth of coming forth, walking in the Light.

    The problem with the Pharisees, is that they believed in resurrections of the past, and of the future, but not of the right now, today if ye hear his voice, harden not your heart, but Live, walking by the Spirit, in the whole Law of God. Many in the churches are like this, a someday life ...

    The Saduccees did not believe in the resurrected life, neither the 3 "angel"s messages (Revelation 14:6-12 KJB), nor the power to live a life without sin (1 John 3:4 KJB), by the Holy Spirit, see Acts 23 in the Light. Many in the church are of these, no victory, and not even looking for it.

    But those like Paul, Lazarus, will sought to be put to death, by those in the church, because their life is the living evidence of God's covenant and promises and love and power.

    Because they are such evidence, even light which manifests or reveals the darkness in the lives of others around them, they who walk in the dark, will seek to be rid of that evidence, and even to put them to death.

    Where was Lazarus? In the tomb, not Heaven, or any other place. John 11:34,38,43,44 KJB

    If there is misunderstanding about the two deaths, Jesus statements will the seem to be in contradiction, though they are in perfect harmony, even from the beginning unto the end.

    When Jesus refers to "never die" he refers to the second death, of which Lazarus will not experience, but only fell unto "sleep".
     
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    That has yet to be seen, and also reading responses is easier for you because your correspondents do not suffer from what seems to be incurable prolixity. As I have said before, if you can't express yourself concisely, get off the forum and write a blog.
     
  14. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Here are the texts and immediate local contexts of the text:

    Luke 23:32-56; Matthew 27:38-66; Mark 15:15-47; John 20:1-31.

    The context of the text, reveals that Jesus, when speaking to the penitent thief, is speaking of the future inheritance, when Jesus would "come" into His Kingdom, and that the thief, because of his faith then in his Saviour, his King ["Lord"], would be resurrected, and enter the Paradise [Heaven, 3rd] of God.

    [1]

    Luke 23:42 KJB - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.​

    Jesus did not "comest" into His Kingdom that day, and did not even when He ascended, becauset here are two thrones, the throne of grace [now], and the Kingdom of Glory [later]

    Matthew 19:28 KJB - And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Matthew 25:31 KJB - When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:​

    According to Daniel, NT [etc] and Revelation, Jesus has not yet "receive"d the Kingdom:

    Daniel 7:14 KJB - And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

    Daniel 7:18 KJB - But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

    Daniel 7:27 KJB - And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    Acts 1:6 KJB - When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    1 Corinthians 15:24 KJB - Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    Hebrews 11:10 KJB - For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.

    Hebrews 11:13 KJB - These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    Hebrews 11:14 KJB - For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

    Hebrews 11:16 KJB - But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

    Hebrews 11:39 KJB - And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

    Hebrews 11:40 KJB - God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    Revelation 19:16 KJB - And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.​

    [2]

    The context of the other Gospel of John reveals that Jesus did not “ascend” to “Paradise” the day of His death at all, for it is written:

    Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.” John 20:17

    This text in context just eliminated any possibility for the Jesus or the thief to have entered Paradise that day the words were spoken, though the scene is a type of the end, when the sheep and goats are divided, Jesus upon a hill, crowned King, all looking upon whom they have pierced. What Jesus was saying to the thief upon the cross, is that though Jesus did not look like a King with a Kingdom, He indeed was, and that if only the thief would believe His words “thou shalt be with me in Paradise”, he would be resurrected in the First Great Resurrection “at the last day” [John 6:39,40,44,54, 11:24], even “at that day” [2 Timothy 4:8]. Jesus, in opposition to what looked like circumstances unto an eternal end, yet He says to the thief, “Verily, verily I say unto thee to day...”, as in right now, this moment, 'I speak to you the truth'. It is like unto what we find here, “For he [is] our God; and we [are] the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,” [Psalms 95:7; see also Hebrews 3:7,15, 4:7], for Jesus is saying, 'Believe my words to day...' and 'have faith in my word this moment' and 'trust me now', even as it is written,

    (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)” [2 Corinthians 6:2]

    ... to be continued ...
     
    #34 One Baptism, Jul 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  15. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    ... continued ...

    [3]

    Jesus was dead and in the Tomb, resting in the sleep of death upon the 7th Day, the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, for even in death He is perfect, for he not going anywhere, as it is written, “...he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.” [Job 21:32], until after His resurrection, for He must of necessity fulfill the scriptures:

    Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Matthew 27:63

    He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Matthew 28:6

    Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. John 10:17

    I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:18

    And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Revelation 2:8

    Jesus, sanctified the Sabbath of the LORD, yet once more, for not only had He done so from Creation, but so also in Redemption, and thus it being an Eternal Memorial of the great price that God has paid. The 7th Day, Jesus rested, will you not enter into that rest, that He provided? Jesus was dead to the world, sin and the devil on the 7th Day, He was Finished.

    Jesus was cold, that we might have warmth. He was in darkness that we might have light. He was dead, that we might have life. He was cut off that we might be found walking in grace. The Sabbath of MY Lord Jesus ...

    Any who trample that day, trample Him. Take off your shoes ...the time of the 7th Day, whenupon thou standest is Holy ...

    ... so much more to say here ...

    [4]

    Christ Jesus did not lead “captivity captive” [the “firstfruits” 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, the “wavesheaf” Leviticus 23:10-12; see Matthew 27:52-53] until His own Resurrection, “the third day” [Luke 24:21],

    “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.” Ephesians 4:8 [Special Resurrection at Jesus own Resurrection, see also Psalms 68:18; Isaiah 26:19; Matthew 27:52,53]

    But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Corinthians 15:20

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

    The English word “coming” in the Greek is “parousia” “παρουσία” and means “presence, the advent, the coming, the arrival, the future visible return of Jesus from Heaven to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the Kingdom of God” [Strong's Concordance] [See Matthew 24:37 and compare to Luke 17:26,30].

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

    Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

    Notice, not individually as any die, but all “together” being alive and others with them made alive in a resurrection [Biblical exceptions, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, special group of “saints” around Jerusalem at Jesus own resurrection, each playing a specific part in typology, there are no other Biblical exceptions].

    The same word can be viewed in many other passages: [Matthew 24:3,27,37,39; 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 10:10; Philippians 1:26, 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,9; James 5:7-8; 2 Peter 1:16, 3:4,12; 1 John 2:28].

    There are also many other words that also describe Jesus' visible, physical, audible, tumultuous, glorious, triumphant and literal return at His appointed time:

    “to come and/or arrive” “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι” [Matthew 24:30, 26:64; John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 11:26; Revelation. 1:7],

    “to appear visibly” “optanomai” “ὀπτάνομαι” [Hebrews 9:28],

    “to return” “analyō” “ἀναλύω” [Luke 12:36],

    “to reveal” “apokalypsis” “ἀποκάλυψις” [2 Thessalonians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7; Luke 17:29-30],

    “to manifest” “epiphaneia” “ἐπιφάνεια” [1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13],

    “make manifest” “phaneroō” “φανερόω” [1 Peter 5:4],

    “come” “hēkō” “ἥκω” [Revelation 2:25],

    “to return” “hypostrephō” “ὑποστρέφω” [Luke 19:12].​

    Therefore, since Jesus is fulfilling the types in their order, Jesus was not to be the Firstfruits until His resurrection from the dead in/on the 16th Of Nisan/Aviv {the "first [day] of the week", which was "...the Third day since these things were done" Luke 24:21}, which is two days later from the Passover, the 14th of Nisan/Aviv, as it is given in Scripture.

    ... to be continued ...
     
    #35 One Baptism, Jul 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  16. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    ... continued ...

    [5]

    Paradise” is actually the “Garden of God” in “the city” “of God”, wherein is “the Throne of God” in the “third Heaven”, where God the Father rules, from where Jesus came from and from which Lucifer was cast out of, by scripture:

    Luke 23:43 Greek και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43

    It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 12:1

    2 Corinthians 12:2 Greek οιδα ανθρωπον εν χριστω προ ετων δεκατεσσαρων ειτε εν σωματι ουκ οιδα ειτε εκτος του σωματος ουκ οιδα ο θεος οιδεν αρπαγεντα τον τοιουτον εως τριτου ουρανου

    I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:2

    And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) 2 Corinthians 12:3

    2 Corinthians 12:4 Greek οτι ηρπαγη εις τον παραδεισον και ηκουσεν αρρητα ρηματα α ουκ εξον ανθρωπω λαλησαι

    How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:4

    Revelation 2:7 Greek ο εχων ους ακουσατω τι το πνευμα λεγει ταις εκκλησιαις τω νικωντι δωσω αυτω φαγειν εκ του ξυλου της ζωης ο εστιν εν μεσω του παραδεισου του θεου

    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7

    In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:2

    Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14

    Ezekiel 28:13 LXX ἐν τῇ τρυφῇ τοῦ παραδείσου τοῦ θεοῦ ἐγενήθης· πᾶν λίθον χρηστὸν ἐνδέδεσαι, σάρδιον καὶ τοπάζιον καὶ σμάραγδον καὶ ἄνθρακα καὶ σάπφειρον καὶ ἴασπιν καὶ ἀργύριον καὶ χρυσίον καὶ λιγύριον καὶ ἀχάτην καὶ ἀμέθυστον καὶ χρυσόλιθον καὶ βηρύλλιον καὶ ὀνύχιον, καὶ χρυσίου ἐνέπλησας τοὺς θησαυρούς σου καὶ τὰς ἀποθήκας σου ἐν σοὶ ἀφ᾿ ἧς ἡμέρας ἐκτίσθης σύ.

    Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezekiel 28:13

    Ezekiel 31:9 LXX διὰ τὸ πλῆθος τῶν κλάδων αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐζήλωσεν αὐτὸν τὰ ξύλα τοῦ παραδείσου τῆς τρυφῆς τοῦ θεοῦ.

    I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. Ezekiel 31:9

    Isaiah 51:3 LXX καὶ σὲ νῦν παρακαλέσω, Σιων, καὶ παρεκάλεσα πάντα τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς καὶ θήσω τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς ὡς παράδεισον κυρίου· εὐφροσύνην καὶ ἀγαλλίαμα εὑρήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ, ἐξομολόγησιν καὶ φωνὴν αἰνέσεως.

    For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody. Isaiah 51:3

    Jesus did not enter into “Paradise” until after He was resurrected and arose from death “the third day” according to the scriptures, this being His first ascension back into Heaven, the other at the Mount of Olives [Acts 1:9; Revelation 12:5], after 40 days [Acts 1:3], 10 days before Pentecost, the 50th Day [Leviticus 23:16] in exact fulfillment of the Biblical Types and Prophecy given in the OT [unto Moses and Aaron].

    ... to be continued ...
     
  17. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    ... continued ...

    [6]

    Jesus is specific about how anyone which dies, is to enter into Heaven, “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.” [John 14:3], and that word “come” is the Greek “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι”.

    Death is an enemy, not a friend [1 Corinthians 15:26], for it has a sting, which will one day be no more, and it was not until after the Resurrection of Christ Jesus, that He “...hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” [2 Timothy 1:10].

    [7]

    Jesus went to go receive the Kingdom, and went into that Far Country, 3rd Heaven. He is not yet married unto it.

    He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luke 19:12

    See point [1] for further texts

    The number of His Kingdom is not made up yet, but soon it will be, for all those who are choosing, will have chosen.

    See also: Isaiah 61:10, 62:5; Matthew 21:33, 25:14; Mark 12:1; Luke 20:9

    Especially Read Matthew 25 and the Ten Virgins.

    [8]

    For the Roman Catholics and others,

    According to the various man-made traditions and creeds of Roman Catholicism and others [usually so-called 'Orthodoxy'], Christ Jesus did not go to “Paradise” that day either, but rather they say that he [Christ, in a Platonic Dualism] “descended into hell” [their def. of "hell"; which is completely unscriptural, but that is for another time and topic] and it was not until the “third day” [Matthew 12:40 He said, “three days and three nights”, but on Two occasions, Matthew 27:63; Mark 8:31 He said, “after three days.” and He referred to the same event 5 times in Matthew 26:61, 27:40; Mark 15:29; John 2:19-20 as “in three days”, and on Twelve occasions it is said, “the third day.” Matthew 16:21, 17:23, 20:19; Mark 9:31, 10:34; Luke 9:22, 13:32, 18:33, 24:7,46; Acts 10:40; 1 Corinthians 15:4.] that he arose, and finally “ascended” into heaven. This creates a serious theological conundrum and contradiction for any which believe this, if they also think that Luke 23:43 says Christ Jesus entered “Paradise” that same day he died. Others attempt to redefine “Paradise” into a type of 'limbo', but even in this, it still contradicts.

    We may see this from several Roman "Catholic" sources, such as:

    Thomas Aquinas “Summa Theologica”, Third Part, Question 52; Article 4, Reply To Objection 1 [and throughout, having both the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur]:

    Reply to Objection 1. When Christ descended into hell He delivered the saints who were there, not by leading them out at once from the confines of hell, but by enlightening them with the light of glory in hell itself. Nevertheless it was fitting that His soul should abide in hell as long as His body remained in the tomb.” - SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Christ's descent into hell (Tertia Pars, Q. 52)

    or we may see it from the “Creed of Aquiliea”":

    Descendit ad inferna; tertia die resurrexit a mortuis (He descended to hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead); Ascendit in cœlos; sedet ad dexteram Patris; (He ascended to the heavens; he sits at the right hand of the Father)”- CHURCH FATHERS: Commentary on the Apostles' Creed (Rufinus)

    or considering the “Apostles Creed”, it clearly states that Jesus was not “caught up to Heaven” until after the “third day”; “T” Apostles Creed :

    ...(5) He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; (6) He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; ...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apostles' Creed

    or considering the “Nicene Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus that he:

    ...suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Nicene Creed

    or considering the “Athanasian Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus:

    ...Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Athanasian Creed
    While all of this is RC 'tradition', it still proves the point against them in their misuse of this text.

    ... now to the language itself, and the textual structure ...

    ... to be continued ...
     
  18. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    DID JESUS LIE?... I used you as a springboard Brother Martin in reference to the OP... Did not Jesus tell the dying thief on the cross TO DAY!... Not tomorrow or some two-thousand plus years in the future... TO DAY... I could tell a 5 year old child, that we are going to Disneyland TO DAY... I can guarantee you that, that child expects me to take them to Disneyland TO DAY!... Scripture does not tell us what the mind, heart and soul, was of that thief that heard those words... But there is no scripture that he questioned what Jesus said... If there is, show it to me!... One of these days (I'm 71 now)... I going to fold up this old tabernacle and lay it down... If the Lord doesn't return before I do... My Spirit is going to cross the chilly waters of Jordan and the Lord and all my loved ones, will welcome me home... Where I will dwell in paradise... Then on that morning of all mornings... God will send his SON to gather his own, Body, Soul and Spirit and take them home to be with him in Glory... Btw One Baptism, we hashed this same question out on my thread on Soul Sleep, and this OP is no different, but how we understand it and believe in it, is... You see your brethren and those who believe as you do see... A BECKONING GRAVE... Where those brethren who believe as I do see... A PROMISED PARADISE... BECAUSE!... JESUS DIDN'T LIE!... Brother Glen:)
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This is the Baptist Board, not the Ole SDA and False prophetess one!
     
  20. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    So whom are we to believe then, the Church's explanation of things or yours? All you are stating here is your opinion of things, what you a mere mortal has come up with. It's your "man made" opinion here, nothing more, nothing less.
     
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