1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured In search of J. J. Ray

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by rlvaughn, Mar 15, 2018.

Top Posters
Page 2 of 3
  1. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,797
    Likes Received:
    700
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As we see over and over, both extremes have serious credibility issues.

    One poster here's kept repeating his line that there was no actual J. J. Ray, and other such nonsense, long after evidence was presented in the 2004 thread that suggested otherwise.

    A sample over the years (and this is just from this board):
     
    #21 Jerome, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  2. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believed that maybe Ray was laying low because his book was a heavy plagiarization of Dr. Ben Wilkinson's Our Authorized Bible Vindicated. Ray didn't acknowledge Dr. W in the slightest.

    Then Dr. D. O. Fuller copied from both Dr. W & Ray in his 1970 book, Which Bible? But he at least acknowledged them.

    Those 3 boox are the basis of the current KJVO myth.

    THANX,Rlvaughn, for the intel on Ray!
     
    #22 robycop3, Mar 19, 2018
  3. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Good find. I had Mrs. Ray's maiden name, but had not connected her to the Thomas Nelson her husband was in business with.

    This may explain Ray's initial move to Junction City. Looks like his work with the Sunday School Union may not have started till the mid 1920s.
     
    #23 rlvaughn, Mar 19, 2018
  4. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Gerald B. Winrod

    Carl J. E. Nelson
     
    #24 rlvaughn, Mar 19, 2018
  5. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,222
    Likes Received:
    410
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I searched for his book in response to J. J. Ray at books.google and came across books with information about this man.

    Gerald Burton Winrod is said to have been fundamentalist, anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, anti-evolution. He ran for U. S. Senate in Kansas in the 1930's. He was accused of supporting Nazism, and was said to have been arrested during World War II.

    He founded a group called "Defenders of the Christian faith" and had a publication entitled "Defender." He is said to have been friends with William Bell Riley, and at one time an extension secretary of Riley's World's Christian Fundamental Association. One book suggested that he joined Pentecostals in evangelistic campaigns and political causes while another book suggested that he was an independent Baptist.
     
    #25 Logos1560, Mar 20, 2018
  6. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,797
    Likes Received:
    700
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Bro. RLVaughn, I have info on C. J. E. Nelson, with sources:

    Vestkusten (San Francisco, Calif.) 8 Feb. 1923, p. 3:

    nelsoncarl.jpg

    Literature & Odd Fiction - William Matthews, Bookseller

    "122.... Nelson (Carl J.E.) A True Brother. Colorado Springs: Rays of Light, (1941)....A peculiar novel, much to do with collecting moths and butterflies in the Pike's Peak region."
     
    #26 Jerome, Mar 20, 2018
  7. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,797
    Likes Received:
    700
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Evangelical Beacon (Evangelical Free Church of America) 21 June 1949, p. 8:

    nelson2.jpg

    Calvin Hanson's History of the Evangelical Free Church in America (1990) p. 196:
    nelson3.jpg
     
    #27 Jerome, Mar 20, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  8. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,797
    Likes Received:
    700
    Faith:
    Baptist
    #28 Jerome, Mar 20, 2018
  9. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,797
    Likes Received:
    700
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thank you for identifying yourself so promptly, Robycop3. Making J.J. Ray a he/she ranks right up there with the 'tax stamp' howler.
     
    #29 Jerome, Mar 20, 2018
  10. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not specific to Ray, but since he was dependent on Wilkinson...

    I may just be coming late to the party, but I didn't realize that Benjamin Wilkinson wrote a second book, a response to the objections to Our Authorized Version Vindicated, called Answers to Objections.

    What was the impetus Wilkinson's book? Was something going on among the Adventists at this time? Seems Our Authorized Version Vindicated was ostensibly a reply against the Revised Version and the American Revision of 1901. But why in 1930, nearly 30 years later? The timing of the works of Hills, Ray, et al. is easier for me to understand. The Revised Standard had recently been produced and there was much objection to it.
     
    #30 rlvaughn, Mar 20, 2018
  11. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,855
    Likes Received:
    1,086
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wilkinson was among the conservatives in the Adventists' conservative-modernist controversy that affected most Protestant denominations of the time. Wilkinson was conservative, claiming that Ellen White's writings were inspired (even though she used different Bible versions). For Wilkinson, upholding White and the KJV were two sides of the same coin.

    https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1427&context=jats

    To those who hold up Wilkinson as an expert, please read his Truth Triumphant, which denies orthodox Trinitarianism and makes St. Patrick into an Adventist who rejects Trinitarianism and holds to a Saturday sabbath, among other things. (Sort of like some folks want to make him into a Baptist.)

    https://www.sabbathtruth.com/portals/20/documents/Truth_Triumphant.pdf
     
    #31 rsr, Mar 20, 2018
  12. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I guess I'd never thought of the SDA's having a fundamentalist/modernist controversy going on at the same time as many other denominations. I found an online Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, and I see that he launches right into that in chapter 1 -- linking the Revised Version to modernism, then following with an example of articles in 1928 and 1929 about who killed Goliath. So I see what you are saying about the timing.
    I'd say that shows bias and willingness to give in to that bias. I have no thought on his expertise or the lack thereof, but I have noticed some random comments in places that seemed to imply that Wilkinson might not have had a doctorate, or received it from a less than reputable source. According an excerpt posted online, purported to be from the Seventh-day Adventist Encyclopedia, Wilkinson studied for the ministry at Battle Creek College, received a B.A. degree from the University of Michigan in 1897 (which I was able to confirm on Ancestry.com), and received a doctoral degree from George Washington University in 1908. (A Master's in not mentioned.) Being well-educated and not being an expert in certain fields are not mutually exclusive (I know that's not what you mean, but I am thinking along this line because I have just been researching a bit about the person Wilkinson.)
     
    #32 rlvaughn, Mar 20, 2018
  13. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,855
    Likes Received:
    1,086
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I make no judgments about whether a person with a degree is qualified to comment on a subject. I have worked in my profession for 40 years and am not qualified to be a college professor because I lack an advanced degree. I have been edified by the New Testament criticism of W. Wilker, who is has no professional qualifications but has laboriously collated texts in a way that is rare among even academics. On the other hand, people like Wilkinson (who was president of a college but had no discernible expertise in the original languages) are taken as experts on textual matters.
     
    #33 rsr, Mar 20, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree rsr. One of the very best experts in textual collation is the late William Pierpont, who did not have a degree in anything related to bible textual issues. He ended up being co-editor of The Greek New Testament: Byzantine Textform, with Dr. Maurice Robinson, who has a doctorate in the field.

    He also was an Engineer in the Structures department at Beech Aircraft, where his technical expertise allowed him to create and head a Structural Dynamics Group. He eventually became recognized--even within NASA--as an expert in aircraft structural dynamics, particularly vibration and wing flutter. He often served as an expert witness regarding the causes of small plane crashes. He retired as Chief Scientist at Beech in 1982 after approximately 41 years of service. And all that with virtually no post secondary education.
     
    #34 TCassidy, Mar 20, 2018
  15. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,797
    Likes Received:
    700
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The second work you linked to explains on p. 3:

    "the book entitled, "The World's Best Book" (W.P. Pearce), published....by one of our large publishing houses, which in its ultimate, is a plea for the American Revised Version....That book went far astray in expressing denominational views."
     
    #35 Jerome, Mar 20, 2018
  16. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Good point to show that we need to be discerning -- and make enough effort to learn as much about any given topic that we can -- since the letters before and behind a person's name (or lack thereof) may or may not mean anything about them knowing the topic they are discussing.
    Thanks. I had noticed a mention of that book title somewhere, but hadn't followed up on it.

    While Wilkinson apparently did make an original contribution to the Bible versions debate, these kinds of things seldom originate out of thin air.
     
    #36 rlvaughn, Mar 21, 2018
  17. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Strangely enough, I found this book advertised twice in May 1930 in Word and Way, a Kansas City, Missouri Baptist publication. Wondering why they would advertise a book by a Seventh-Day Adventist -- and say "Every Bible student should have it in his library," I searched and discovered W(illiam) P. Pearce was actually a Baptist preacher. I then wondered why a Seventh-Day Adventist Publishing House (Pacific Press Publishing Association, Mountain View, CA) would publish a book by a Baptist preacher. Perhaps he had a brief stint as an Adventist. Haven't found out yet.
     
    #37 rlvaughn, Mar 21, 2018
  18. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ad for Pearce's book:
     

    Attached Files:

    #38 rlvaughn, Mar 21, 2018
  19. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Author is pastor of First Baptist Church, Albion, Michigan:
     

    Attached Files:

    #39 rlvaughn, Mar 21, 2018
  20. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,797
    Likes Received:
    700
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Battle Creek Enquirer Sat Jan 25 1930
    3316_0962ef303162e7038d4c6b1cc799a6fd.jpg

    Battle Creek Sanitarium - Wikipedia
     
    #40 Jerome, Mar 21, 2018
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 2 of 3
Loading...